Joe Moore (00:00:21):
Hi everybody. Joe here. Hope you’re doing great. Kyle, how are you today? Pretty

Kyle Buller (00:00:28):
Good, Joe. And you just wrapped up a [00:00:30] little a MA on Reddit, didn’t you?

Joe Moore (00:00:32):
Yeah, first ever. Reddit a MA. It was really fun. It was Reddit, the head, like half million people in it or so, which is great. Rau, yeah, maybe a little under half million. I don’t really remember the number, but it was cool. It was active. People had me on my toes. It was lovely. It’s

Kyle Buller (00:00:48):
That a lot since, and having to type everything out within an hour.

Joe Moore (00:00:52):
Oh yeah. And I’m trying to be quick and I’m trying to not be too careful and I’m just like, oh, okay. [00:01:00] Some spicy things came out. Clearly. People that don’t like me or my thinking came to the table, but that’s fine. I like that kind of stuff, especially when it’s in an open, fair place for discussion. Yeah, yeah. Cool. So today, oh, actually before we get into our topics, which are going to be like body work, breath work, touch and psychedelic sessions and more, let’s talk about navigators. So you and I just decided we wanted to open up our community [00:01:30] and have a few different paid tiers in there to support the show, support us, and keep us doing this important work. You can find more@psychedelicstoday.com slash navigators, but can you talk a little bit about why it’s important that we’re going this way and starting on online community?

Kyle Buller (00:01:46):
Yeah, I think you have mentioned, I think in the Instagram how community is important and things that we’ve seen over the years is around a lot of people’s eyeballs are on the platforms, all the social media platforms. And then it’s like the algorithms [00:02:00] and something that we faced a couple months ago back in the early summer, and this kind of happened across the board and psychedelics, A lot of people’s accounts were getting shut down, especially through meta. And if our accounts get shut down, we have no way of communicating unless we’re doing newsletters and stuff like that. So we really wanted to try to make a little bit of a pivot away from some of the, just being so social media dominant and start to create more of a platform where we can get [00:02:30] together. We’ll have book clubs, as you mentioned. There’s different tiers. So there’s book clubs. We’ll probably do some film clubs, releases of the podcast early ad free. Also some tiers include all of our education. So if you’re really wanting to dive into some of the education and you could pick that tier. And then some of the highest tier also comes with a lot of mentor one-on-one calls with us as well, and networking and events and stuff [00:03:00] like that. So we really want to just get people together and have conversations and to deepen the community here. But yeah, if you want to add anything as well,

Joe Moore (00:03:09):
Some of the lines, we’re using humanity or people need community, not algorithms. We’re getting so worked over by algorithms right now and I think over the last few months we’ve noticed it even more. And now with the Americanization of TikTok, I’m not following [00:03:30] super closely, but I understand that American interests are now going to control that as opposed to Chinese interests, which is very interesting and is going to have some crazy results. So how do we take more control, have more agency in what we consume for media, and it’s getting away from these big obnoxious platforms that have no accountability other than the shareholders

Kyle Buller (00:03:54):
Or Facebook still shut down. It’s still suspended and we don’t have access to that anymore unfortunately. So [00:04:00] I think that was a big wake up call for us of working in a taboo field where you can easily go against their vague community guidelines and their AI moderation. It’s just zapping account. So we want to create a space where we can just continue to cultivate community and relationship there.

Joe Moore (00:04:20):
You might get a kick out of this. I wrote an article on my substack a while ago called Not Your Keys, not Your Content and Play on the Crypto Line. And the idea is that at any moment, one [00:04:30] of these tech oligarchs can just shut you down. It doesn’t even need to be an oligarch. It could be some mid-level manager or a faceless algorithm

Joe Moore (00:04:38):
That

Joe Moore (00:04:38):
Is just the amount of drugs I see advertised on meta properties for how poorly they’ve treated us who have working on safety and community here. It’s just bonkers, like Iboga gummies and it’s super crazy and not great. And [00:05:00] people don’t buy drugs from social media, please, that’s psychedelics today, 1 0 1. Do not buy drugs on social media. Please,

Kyle Buller (00:05:08):
Please, please. I, I’ve been getting all these advertisements for mushroom grow kits and all these weird mushroom bars on TikTok. I’m like, how are they getting away with selling this stuff on here? When that goes against their community guidelines, it just makes no sense. And then yeah, you put out a video on harm reduction education and safety and it’s flagged and your account gets strikes and stuff like that.

Joe Moore (00:05:30):
[00:05:30] Yeah, here’s how you can ruin your social media, try to help people and help ’em be safe. So anyway, we’re having a lot of trouble with social media. We don’t think that social media is going to be the future for psychedelics. It’s going to be smaller, more private communities. So come join ours if you want to get more time with us, more FaceTime with us, maybe even input on guests we have on the show or questions we ask guests. Yeah, we’re going to have all sorts of stuff there, so please [00:06:00] check it out. The book lists for the book club is going to be really fun. We’ve been working on that a little bit. Kyle and I are working on a couple screenings for films that we can then have film clubs about. It’s going to be a really, really rich community in time, and it already is. We’ve got well over a thousand people I think, already in the platform, which is lovely. Not all of whom are members. So if you want to become a member, people who are already in circle, please do that. We would love that and really appreciate it. [00:06:30] Yeah, maybe that’s it for now. We can circle back to it near the end. Yeah,

Kyle Buller (00:06:33):
Definitely.

Joe Moore (00:06:34):
Cool. So there’s a few interesting threads we want to chat about today. So I want to primarily focus on trauma informed care and body work. There’s a lot of conversation, and this is a little tangential, and then

Kyle Buller (00:06:57):
We just lost you, Joe, your microphone went off, I think. [00:07:00] Let me double check my settings, but I don’t hear you. There you go. Oh, test, test. Yeah, there you go. The joins of going

Joe Moore (00:07:15):
Live with Tech Hiccups. The idea I’m learning is don’t touch your audio interface while you’re live. I was poking at my levels to make sure it wasn’t too hot. So at [00:07:30] the Psychedelics and Pain Association, we’ve talked a lot about how important touch and body work is in relation to treating pain conditions with psychedelics. We actually worked with a lot of people to try to get touch included in the Colorado regulated access program around the NMHA, the Natural Medicines Health Act, and were unsuccessful because regulators weren’t yet comfortable with it. It wasn’t that the data wasn’t there, [00:08:00] it’s just like this feels like something that’s too far for us to touch and psychedelics. It feels scary, so we shouldn’t do it in the pain space. At the very least, it’s quite clear that touch is important. Is

Kyle Buller (00:08:13):
There some data around that?

Joe Moore (00:08:17):
Yeah, I don’t have it offhand. We’d want to bring court in to talk about that. And guys, listeners, sorry, if you want to check out that, just listen to a bunch of episodes that we’ve done with Court Wing in the past. And there’s [00:08:30] a lot of conversations around touch and why it’s important and it’s different kinds of input and it’s different kinds of care in the pain space at least. And then this is touch. I think it’s been really important in our work with breathwork, with Holbrook Breath work, it’s been something that we’ve experienced a lot in Holter breath and we’ve yet to include that kind of stuff in Vital, but it’s something that we think about and [00:09:00] it’s like when is it safe and how is it going to be safe in the future? There’s a lot of questions, so it’s kind of like rewind the tape. So I started seeing people get body work before I ever received body work, and I was like, oh, that’s interesting. That seems to really change things and amplify things. And I was like, I want that because I’m just looking for a really big experience in my early days of breath work. And that looked like one avenue. What was [00:09:30] your exposure when you started seeing body work and breathwork sessions?

Kyle Buller (00:09:35):
Yeah, I kind of jumped in and I was a little hesitant about it. I was always a little hesitant around touch. And I think the first session I had, I had touch, but it also, I wasn’t super, I guess feeling it. I didn’t feel like it was super helpful that first round. But as I started to go back more and I think there was some [00:10:00] of that resistance because I’m like, is this beneficial? But as I started to go deeper into breathwork, I’ve noticed how important it can be for some folks. And I think we always like to say it’s totally optional. People don’t need to engage in the work. But I’ve had a lot of experiences once I started becoming more comfortable with it, that it was really profound to help me resolve things that may have felt stuck in my body. It helped me to deepen [00:10:30] my experience to just go deeper into it. And something I always like to say too is that people can do their own self touch and it’s a totally optional thing in breathwork.

Joe Moore (00:10:55):
Okay, there’s a few things. So if we want [00:11:00] to go into history at a certain point it was clear and it was obvious, and it was like a universal truth that infants didn’t remember harms, babies didn’t remember anything that happened to them. The theory was that the nerves weren’t myelinated enough, there wasn’t enough fatty membrane for nerve signal to really transmit skillfully, and then therefore anesthesia wasn’t required. There was no concern given to the experience [00:11:30] of the person being born. And that came later. And now it’s pretty clear that the experience of birth does matter to people. And the experience of neonatal surgeries or chemotherapies or things, it does matter. The baby remembers and what’s the title of the book? The Body Keeps the score there. That’s like an original insult. And sometimes we’re regressing into these situations where body work can be helpful and is [00:12:00] a really primal input, primal sensory input in terms of maybe evolution of the nervous system that works on us in really deep ways. And we have that classic kind of psychology experiment where they were raising very rudely for that matter, the monkeys and not allowing them access to the mother. And there’s just the terrycloth all and how much that impacted the psychology of the primates. Yeah, breeds crazy amounts of anxiety. So touch matters, touch is [00:12:30] a certain kind of connection that does matter and the body remembers. So there’s these kind of insults and then there’s these kind of omissions.

(00:12:39):
And then bodywork seems to help in a lot of those cases. And I think we’re seeing it in the old school LSD psychotherapy literature. We’re seeing it sometimes at maps, clinical trials. I don’t think most people are trained in how to do body work as part of the clinical trials, so we don’t really see it discussed a lot. [00:13:00] But in hochberg, one of the five main pillars. How do you like to understand what is body work in ho breath work? And Kyle and I are not certified in ho breath work. Kyle is certified in dream shadow transpersonal breath work. I am not certified in anything certified podcaster

Kyle Buller (00:13:22):
Soon, hopefully

Joe Moore (00:13:24):
Soon.

Kyle Buller (00:13:25):
I don’t know. My theories around it have changed a bit over the years. [00:13:30] I think digging into some of my own experiences, thinking about it from more of a trauma-informed somatic perspective, I think when we’re taught that technique, it’s really about the amplification of one’s own inner process and the expression of it, which can be important. Some people sometimes really want that deep catharsis that comes with the bodywork and getting whatever is out of the system. [00:14:00] Sometimes it has nothing to do with that. Sometimes there’s been so many times in sessions where somebody’s like, my hands are still buzzing, right? I still feel like a little bit tingling sensations and just helping support somebody in that process. And they might say, I feel like my hands just really want to push against something. So it’s just being able to allow a little bit of resistance.

(00:14:23):
It could be the facilitator’s hand against, and that person is just pushing against, it could [00:14:30] grab a pillow. You could have other things that somebody could push against, but sometimes that energy just is kind of stuck in the system and wants to move. And there’s been lots of times where there’s nothing emotional there. There’s nothing cathartic. But afterwards people are like, oh, that really helped that tingling sensation, and it really helped just move some of that stuff out of my body. Other times it can be trapped up with the trauma. We talk about these concepts of errors of commission [00:15:00] and errors of omission, errors of omission, things that maybe we didn’t receive. So that form of body work and touch could be something simple as holding somebody’s hand if it feels appropriate and safe and if somebody’s asking for that. And then, yeah, the errors of, what did I say? Errors of commission or things that have happened to us. So maybe it’s an old injury. Sometimes when I’m in breath work, I get a lot of [00:15:30] interesting sensations from where I had my accident, and sometimes that stuff comes up and sometimes I want to work with that feeling in the body. And I think about it also from that stuff is also stored in the fascia and

Joe Moore (00:15:47):
Start

Kyle Buller (00:15:47):
Tapping into these states. Maybe we become more aware of it. And I’ve noticed this a lot through doing physical therapy on a lot of this stuff and how much emotion is still stuck there. [00:16:00] I’ve had dry needling done on the scar tissue and stuff, and just huge amounts of catharsis could come from that. And that’s, I guess I always say typical if you’re going for a physical therapy session and trying to get some sort of physical manipulation. Some people I think are a little bit more in tune with that emotional state, but I realize that stuff is still kind of in me at times and how important it can be to facilitate that. [00:16:30] I had a physical therapist just do some gentle, I don’t know what she was doing, what the technique was, but it was just gentle stuff on the fascia. And I was all of a sudden I felt like I was back in the hospital and dealing with some really deep content from that incident.

(00:16:49):
And I always just find it so fascinating that, and it was the most subtle thing. I could barely feel her hand, but it was just enough to activate something emotionally within me [00:17:00] and allow that kind of catharsis to happen. And it also helped to deepen my perspective on it. It was like, oh, maybe I didn’t get something I was looking for during that time, or maybe I haven’t fully processed that experience and this allowed me to process it in a way. And so I think that’s where it can be important for folks that want to do that type of stuff. And I always like to say, I think it’s really important to give enough [00:17:30] informed consent and the ability to say, no, this stuff is totally optional for folks, but I think it can also help to deepen one’s experience if they’re interested in exploring that. Let’s

Joe Moore (00:17:43):
Talk about how slow this process is. Default is to not do body work

(00:17:49):
In a lot of cases. Totally. I would very much prefer not to touch people, especially deep in the session. So the first indication [00:18:00] generally is that they open their eyes and look around and we go talk to them for a while. And that’s a really slow conversation, long slow conversation to say, oh, what’s going on? What’s happening in your body? How are your hands? What’s going on emotionally? And where are those emotions? And then we’re like, maybe you want to go back in and breathe more. And you’re having quite lucid conversations. It’s not like you’re jumping in, [00:18:30] especially with no conversation whatsoever. Right.

Kyle Buller (00:18:32):
No, not at all. Yeah.

Joe Moore (00:18:34):
Why do you think it’s important to go really slow with these conversations?

Kyle Buller (00:18:38):
Well, it’s developing that safety and trust in the relationship. And also, again, this is, I always try to preface it too, is this isn’t something that we’re trying to do to you in the sense of when we think about body work in the sense of massage or physical therapy, there’s a physical manipulation that’s trying to do something [00:19:00] to the system. There’s a knot in my neck and I need to physically maybe do whatever that is, but I approach it as this is supposed to be a supportive process for what you’re going through. And we’re really just trying to create that container to support your process. And so it is really important to take it slow and see if that is what the person actually wants to do and make sure that they’re back and aware they’re [00:19:30] consenting to it appropriately and making sure that it’s not forceful.

(00:19:35):
It’s like, Hey, we need to do body work on you. This is coming up. It’s like, no, does that person want to explore that? And if they don’t, that’s totally fine. So I always see it as how do we support somebody’s process? And I guess an example could be somebody’s coming out and they’re feeling, again, we’ll just use that example of buzzing in the hands and taking it slow, figuring out what’s going on for [00:20:00] the person, making sure they’re back, they’re lucid and saying, does your experience need anything right now? Do you want to go into anything? Where are you feeling it in their body? And sometimes people know, they’re like, my hands really just want to push against something. Can you help me just do that? And so it’s creating that container for people to explore their own experience. And I approach it as more of a supportive [00:20:30] process and not something that we necessarily need to do in terms of here’s the framework, here’s this. It’s like, what is the person really wanting in this time?

Joe Moore (00:20:45):
And the idea that it needs to be super dramatic is just not a real thing. The idea that it needs to be really painful is not a real thing. If someone was nonverbal, I wouldn’t touch them at all. [00:21:00] Yeah, it’s got to be part of a conversation.

Kyle Buller (00:21:05):
And also looking at body language too. So even if people are talking and something feels like a little off, you’re thinking about how close are you to somebody? Are you giving them enough space? Do they feel like you are trying to do something? It’s like, do you need to back off? So you also really need to be aware of a lot of the nonverbals too, and thinking about [00:21:30] space and how that might be influencing somebody’s experience and all that. So it’s not also just that verbal consent. We got to also look at body language. Sometimes people do come out of experiences and they have a hard time verbalizing, and you can also see that in psychedelics. People just can’t verbalize anything. And that’s where you have to proceed with a lot of caution. And also check in with, yeah, what’s going on right [00:22:00] now? If somebody kind of going in a bit of a freeze state and that’s a sign, maybe we back off, or they are a little bit more hypervigilant and tense. They’re trying to get out of a situation. So you really have to be really mindful and paying attention to everything that’s going on in that situation.

(00:22:27):
And I think as you mentioned too, taking [00:22:30] the option that to not do body work, I always think, how do we actually not do this stuff at times, really allowing the person to want to do that and to express that. But yeah, most of the time it’s really giving that person the agency to want to explore that.

Joe Moore (00:22:53):
And this is us explaining our experience, facilitating breath work sessions, and this is us not, [00:23:00] this is kind of as far as we go, even talking about it in vital. We don’t advise people do body work ever, especially people in our world because that requires a lot of specialized training. It requires all sorts of ethical conversations, agreements, and the legal situation isn’t such that Touch is really safe to do from the provider aspect. [00:23:30] So how does one feel safe doing it? I don’t have the answer. I do think it’s really important. I do know there’s body workers, massage therapists, physical therapists looking at it, but how do you address it in vital?

Kyle Buller (00:23:49):
We don’t really talk about it too much. I mean, when we do talk about it, we talk more about the ethical violations that have happened with touch and to really tell people to [00:24:00] proceed with caution and to not do it if you don’t have any sort of specific training in it. And just really acknowledging how vulnerable people are in certain states. And we always talk about this weight acronym. I don’t know who talk about it first, but why am I talking, why am I treating, why am I touching? There’s probably some other teas that you could throw in there as well. But it really comes back to like, yeah, why [00:24:30] do I want to do this thing right now? And for a lot of people, they might want to do it because it might feel helpful, right? Oh, I want to be a helpful facilitator right now and do this thing.

(00:24:42):
Or I’m getting this intuition that so-and-so might need this. And we always say, wait, who is this actually for? Is this for you or is this for the person? And I think a lot of people will just kind of act on some of those [00:25:00] intuitions, those downloads, or just kind of thinking about, I’m bored and I need to be helpful, right? No, pull back and wait and really take that in. Who is this actually for? Is this for you or is this for the person? Is the person asking for this or is this something that you’re trying to impose on somebody? So I mean, we really talk about it more from that ethical perspective of violations and misconduct that [00:25:30] have happened. And we don’t really encourage people or train people to do any of that stuff, right? It’s very tricky and nuanced and people should receive if they are going to do stuff like that to receive pretty in depth training with it.

Joe Moore (00:25:47):
Absolutely. Yeah. So I want to go back to, you did a really good job not tap dancing, but explaining the energetics around [00:26:00] what’s going on for the experiencer, the person who’s breathing or in the drug experience. And there’s a lot of things that can happen. That’s one of the things about psychedelics. Anything can be happening or even breath work, anything possible. And some people see this kind of world in black and white. Is it the case that when we’re kind of doing these interventions [00:26:30] body work, I think this is a pretty clear no. But are we using touch to amplify sensations of trauma? Is that a hard stop? That’s what we’re doing.

Kyle Buller (00:26:44):
I

Joe Moore (00:26:44):
Think it’s more complicated

Kyle Buller (00:26:45):
Than that. I think it’s more complicated than that. I think there’s times probably some people take that approach and really think about this is the whole purpose of it is to amplify one’s experience. Again, over the years, I’ve been really kind of [00:27:00] just doing a lot of thinking about this framework and this theory, and I’ve taken I think more of a backseat approach to it over the years, incorporating a little bit more trauma-informed stuff. I really think about somebody that had an impact on me was reading some of Peter Levine’s work, and he mentioned how some of the primal energies that came out of Lin Retraumatized people. And I remember sitting with that going, no, that’s not true. And I really [00:27:30] had to sit with it and think about some of my own experiences and think about when were those experiences a little too much for my nervous system to handle?

(00:27:40):
And I’m like, yeah, wow. I did have those experiences and I’m actually spent months or years doing integration work around that trauma that got activated. And so it’s healing from the trauma that got activated from something that I thought was really healing. So I think I’ve [00:28:00] taken a bit of a different approach over the years in thinking that this stuff can be really subtle. We don’t need to have big catharsis. We can just be with the experience without needing this whole big thing. Because yeah, I always think about somebody’s window of tolerance. Is it outside their window of tolerance? Should they be pushing that? And sometimes the answer is no. Big catharsis isn’t always the answer. I think we need to take a very titrated approach at times with folks.

Joe Moore (00:28:29):
Can [00:28:30] you describe window of tolerance a little bit?

Kyle Buller (00:28:32):
Yeah. The window of tolerance is describes when the nervous system is entering into hyper arousal or hypo arousal. And so the window of tolerance is that medium. You kind of want to be in that place where you can hold it and not get too into the shut freeze state or too into the fight or flight response. So it’s not going too into that sympathetic drive or going into the other [00:29:00] shutdown drive. You want to stay within that window where you can hold one’s experience. And so I think with psychedelics and breath work, it can really amplify a lot of stuff within us. And maybe this idea that we always need to go big. I always think about Terrence McKenna. It’s like five dried grams in silent darkness. And there’s, I think that narrative that we always need to be chasing the mystical experience and having [00:29:30] really deep catharsis.

(00:29:32):
And I speak about this in the early years, I was like, if I was not dying on psychedelics, I wasn’t doing it. I always needed to have that death experience. And over the years, I realized my nervous system actually couldn’t tolerate that. I probably should have been taking it much slower. But you live and you learn. And I think that’s been a big learning process is that we can have some of [00:30:00] these smaller experiences where we’re not having this big catharsis and ego dissolution. We’re staying within that window where we can really tolerate what’s going on. And so yeah, I think I’ve been doing a lot of thinking around this over the years and maybe also challenging that narrative a bit that we really need big amplification and catharsis to heal,

Joe Moore (00:30:24):
Right? Yeah, I think you’re spot on there on all this, and [00:30:30] we can really put, and that’s kind of the psych not thing, right? We’re like, oh, cool, let’s go really big. But that’s not necessarily the thing that’s helpful. It might be interesting or exciting, but it’s not necessarily the helpful thing. And you see a lot of enthusiasm in younger folks just going really hard, me included. And then where I’m like, oh, maybe a quarter hit. It’s okay. Maybe I don’t need 10 or 20 or whatever. [00:31:00] When I hear about mushroom dosing these days, I’m just like, good god people, your default is seven grams. Good god.

Kyle Buller (00:31:08):
Well, it’s

Joe Moore (00:31:09):
Not even a meaningful thing anymore.

Kyle Buller (00:31:11):
And I also think it’s part of the research too, because a lot of the research also focuses at high dose mystical experiences. When you look at some of the PSY

Joe Moore (00:31:19):
Three and a half gram equivalent, not seven, that was one of the questions on the AMA earlier. It was like, is mystical experience required for a therapeutic result? And short answer, no, [00:31:30] but it’s helpful, can be helpful. I think it’s a good touchstone. And with theona stuff with anesthesia, I think it’s clear that we get decent clinical results even if we’re not aware of those mystical things.

Kyle Buller (00:31:42):
That’s really fascinating

Joe Moore (00:31:45):
Because multisystem, we’re hitting a lot of systems with psychedelics. It’s not just conscious awareness.

Kyle Buller (00:31:53):
That’s

Joe Moore (00:31:53):
A major part of it. We’re hitting so many other things.

Kyle Buller (00:31:56):
You’re getting all the activation of the receptors and the brain [00:32:00] and the gut probably as well, and how is that impacting you, even though you’re not aware of it, right?

Joe Moore (00:32:08):
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I think people need to get a little bit more sophisticated about their understanding of what psychedelics are actually doing. And there’s a lot of different levels at which we need to look at this. So the brain systems map thing, kind of like how go Delin [00:32:30] and Robin Carhartt, Harris and others look at it, and then there’s kind of the more kind of holistic look like what is the actual experience of the person and the transpersonal psychology aspects. I can tell you for sure Robin, these models that folks are working on in these big labs are not able to account for a lot of the experiences.

(00:32:58):
Lenny’s analogy, like, oh, this is where [00:33:00] you can see it right here. This is where he’s seeing the cat in his memory. Yeah, that’s not happening. So there, let’s go back to this. I remember there being some narratives in the maps world around MDMA psychotherapy, and I’ve done none of the training done. Plenty of reading, talked to plenty of people who’ve done the training, but the idea that it comes back often is under the [00:33:30] influence of MDMA, there’s a lot less fear. They talk about downregulation of blood flow and amygdala, which amygdala is far more complicated than that alone. And the idea that you can actually confront and reprocess these experiences as a more calm nervous system to hopefully process them to hopefully get to the other side of them while not having an outrageously strong fear response. Is that largely in line with your understanding of [00:34:00] the MAPS framework around MDMA?

Kyle Buller (00:34:02):
That’s essentially kind of the theory around it. So yeah, decreased blood flow to the amygdala, they suggest the left part of the amygdala, which is the fear part, fear processing part of the brain. And so when somebody is then activated through a memory, a feeling, typically the limbic system and amygdala would start firing and we would go into that fight or flight or freeze shutdown response. But under the influence of MDMA, maybe [00:34:30] we’re not responding to that as strongly. It’s allowing people to revisit these experiences without that heightened state. But I’d also be curious to really hear, sure, there’s people that do get really activated during these experiences, a really bad MDMA trip and things are emerging, and it’s not necessarily all [00:35:00] people are happy and processing, but, and then there was also something interesting, I think I remember reading years ago also about the therapeutic relationship.

(00:35:10):
And so for those that do have a pretty significant trauma history, may have had to be in a hypervigilant state growing up, those folks will tend to read body language and facial expressions a little bit differently. So even if, yeah, I’m looking at you, Joe, and I noticed you twitch your eye, I could be like, oh, [00:35:30] Joe hates me right now. He’s thinking something I might need to get out of here. But also under the influence, it actually dulled that response and it allowed for more connection, which is interesting. So if you bring in a little bit of the polyvagal theory, it’s bringing that relationship to the forefront, having that trust and calm in there, and that also is part of the healing. And so [00:36:00] yeah, pretty interesting stuff. I don’t know how much research was actually in there. I don’t know if it was mostly kind of a theory or an actual, they did research on it.

Joe Moore (00:36:11):
It seems solid to me, and it seems to track with my understanding of things, but it’s not like maps is saying, what’s your scariest moment? Go there immediately and re-experience it. That’s hopefully something that can unfold more naturally. Hopefully

Kyle Buller (00:36:30):
[00:36:30] You need to take it slow. We really need to take it slow. And I think that’s something I’ve just been learning over the years where it’s like when you’re dealing with a lot of trauma, you also need to take it slow. I’m always reminded because, and I share this story often when I’m teaching this near death experience, I’ve talked about it for those that have listened, you’ve probably heard me talk about it or constantly bring it up. And it was during an ayahuasca experience that I had that I was able to tap into a certain part of that narrative [00:37:00] that allowed me to go deeper into the narrative. And I was only really able to do that because I was kind of paying attention to how my body was responding and really trying to do my own self-regulation there so I could go a little bit deeper in there.

(00:37:16):
And I got to this insight that I was terrified. What I’m working with is fear that I’m never actually going to see my friends or family ever again. And usually when I tell that story, I talk about the bliss and the love and [00:37:30] the transcendence that’s unfolding. And it took me over, I think at that point, 16 or 17 years to tap into, I was afraid. Such a small insight in some regard. It’s like, well, no shit. I think anybody would be afraid. But it was the feeling of fear in my body was too activating to me. I would then go into this fight or flight or freeze response. I would get caught up in these really dark narratives [00:38:00] and I couldn’t ever go there. It just was too much for my body to handle. And so I tried to distract myself, and it was like during this time I was like, wow, I was afraid.

(00:38:14):
And so that reminds me, it’s like this stuff takes time. That took me over 16 years to just come to that realization. And it’s like after all the work I was doing up before that, you figured I would tap into it in [00:38:30] some way, but it’s like sometimes this stuff is just too much to hold in the nervous system. So then that also comes back to the window of tolerance. It’s like when I would start getting into this narrative or this experience, I would always play that game of I need to get up, I need to leave. I need to do things to distract me. I need to get out of here. I don’t feel safe type of response. But I think all that work leading up helped me to stick with the experience and to [00:39:00] go into that. But again, it takes a lot of time to feel safe in the nervous system, to feel safe in relationship, to feel safe in your environment.

(00:39:10):
And I think that is the biggest part of this work. It’s like, how do you cultivate safety? That’s really tough, especially when you’ve dealt with trauma. I think somebody said it to me the best. It’s like, how can I trust myself or feel safe when the universe has always shit on me or bad things [00:39:30] have always happened. And so to then try to find that safety in your nervous system, that’s going to be really, really hard. And it’s actually more activating to feel safe. So when we think about, this came from Beth Rothchild. She wrote a book, the Body remembers, I think that’s what it’s called, volume two. But she talked about how for some folks closing your eyes and inviting people to close their eyes to do meditation can [00:40:00] actually be really, really activating. If you grew up in a hypervigilant environment or you had a career that you needed to be really hypervigilant, closing your eyes and feeling safe actually was threatening. Thinking about those maybe in doing jobs like being police or first responders or the military to feel calm and safe in an environment where you actually need to be on guard, or maybe you grew up in a house where there’s just a lot of chaos [00:40:30] and you always needed to be hypervigilant to actually feel that calmness and that safety is actually going to trigger your nervous system even more. And so that takes a really long time to start to work with. I think.

Joe Moore (00:40:46):
Yeah, I’ve seen it. I’ve seen people respond to it in community and in sessions and in all sorts of things. It’s wild. And sometimes people just want to bolt. It’s challenging. It’s

Kyle Buller (00:40:59):
A very natural response.

Joe Moore (00:41:00):
[00:41:00] One of my favorite stories, and you and I use this a lot, is this. It’s a Viking story.

(00:41:16):
So there’s this classic breathwork case that we chat about, and this one sitter was sitting for a breather. The instruction is very clear that you’re not supposed to know or interpret what you think [00:41:30] is happening for somebody. But the sitter got really kind of triggered and said, oh, this person wants to be cared for. They’re having a really hard time. So kind of bundled them up and started taking care of them as if they really needed to be taken care of a baby or something. But the person was really having the inner experience of being a viking, dying on the battlefield or something along those lines, like a brutal death. And the juxtaposition of those two scenarios was such that [00:42:00] it really was not helpful in accentuating that person’s experience and really distracting for their process. We never really talk about if that was harmful. I think it’s harmful in that it was a really special opportunity that that person had that the sitter influenced in an unhelpful way. And it was because of them kind of thinking, I know what’s happening here

Joe Moore (00:42:24):
And

Joe Moore (00:42:24):
I know what I need to do. How do you like to think about that? Anything in addition.

Kyle Buller (00:42:30):
[00:42:30] Again, it comes back to that weight acronym. Why am I doing something right now? Am I doing it for myself or am I doing it for this person? And in that example, was it actually for that person? And again, we don’t know all the details there. It’s a story, but I think that’s also where frameworks, you brought up the birth stuff a little bit earlier on and [00:43:00] tying body work to the birth process, which can be important for some folks. But I think in this example, it’s like here’s somebody that is kind of maybe following that framework and going, oh, I need to help them rebirth themselves. And so again, I’m speculating. I have no idea what was going on through this person’s head, but hearing it, this is my analysis and what I think about opinion, it’s like, okay, here’s this framework. They’re going through a birth process, they’re [00:43:30] curling up like a fetus, so lemme go in there and help and assist that person, which I don’t think you should do. I think if somebody’s asking for that, if they want you to help them support that, great. But you should never just intervene like that without somebody’s consent and permission.

Joe Moore (00:43:55):
Yeah, I think we covered, so there are scenarios in which people can make mistakes and [00:44:00] it’s not great. Generally, they’re not all the way catastrophic. I’ve not seen anything catastrophic in breath work really ever. And I’ve been around it for over 20 years now. So I think the technique is pretty great. I think to your point earlier, the technique could iterate based on what we know from polyvagal theory and trauma-informed care now. And some people treat it like an orthodoxy. [00:44:30] Some people treat it like a living tradition. I prefer living traditions because everything is changing all the time, and we have to take the latest of science into account and polyvagal stuff is pretty clear. I think it’s still designated a theory. Are there people who are really against polyvagal theory? I heard one hint at it recently, but I wasn’t sure.

Kyle Buller (00:44:52):
There’s definitely some critique that it’s not like, I don’t know all the critiques off my head. I have some slides on [00:45:00] it when I present and give a little bit of disclaimer around that. But yeah, just maybe it’s not super hard science. The polyvagal system’s way more complex, and this is just an oversimplified version of what could be going on in the systems. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for pointing that out. Yeah, totally. Well, I’m curious too, maybe to hear your perspective a little bit. I know maybe I’ve kind of brought in a bunch more of that trauma stuff than maybe [00:45:30] what we were taught and that type of framework. And has that changed your perspective at all on things? Totally, totally.

Joe Moore (00:45:39):
And the idea for me, how it’s kind of changed for me is some people want the adventure of self-discovery, right? And then other people want, how do I feel a little bit better? I can’t handle life right now. It hurts so bad to wake up every day and get through my day. And so those are two very different categories and [00:46:00] not everybody should get these treatments. And I think how it’s kind of shifted how I think about psychedelic care or drug assisted psychotherapies is like MDMA might be the first line in these things for the first bunch of sessions, or could even be ketamine shorter.

Joe Moore (00:46:19):
And

Joe Moore (00:46:19):
Then we have other people looking at even shorter acting drugs. And I’m like, that’s really interesting too. How do we give people agency enough back so that they can feel safe to work on [00:46:30] repairing circuits, repairing traumas, whatever it is, or processing traumas and agency is a big deal. And me being Mr. Doctors saying, you need these drugs and you don’t have a choice. The clinical frame often is just very immediately destroying agency. And that’s really a challenging thing to solve.

Joe Moore (00:46:52):
People

Joe Moore (00:46:53):
Don’t necessarily want to accommodate for that, but they need to, how we do clinical care, [00:47:00] we need to really examine to make sure we’re not adding more trauma into people. And that’s a really fucking challenging thing. So that’s me evolving from where I was before where I’m like, go to the doctor, they give you fucking whatever, and hopefully you’re better. And that’s the story. And then they’ve failed me so many times, so I’m a little challenged with it too. So maybe it’s not them as individuals, as them as a [00:47:30] practice and a licensed profession that they have to follow the certain rules to get to. Yeah, go ahead.

Kyle Buller (00:47:37):
Well, I think what you’re saying about the agency is just so important. And I think when we think about some traumas that’s also maybe at the core of it, our agency was taken away. And so really helping people to cultivate that sense of agency, creating that space where somebody feels that and feels safe, I think is the most important thing.

Joe Moore (00:48:00):
[00:48:00] And a lot of people think that body work in sessions or this trauma-informed care thing isn’t really a living tradition and a living kind of thing that’s evolving. It is. It’s not the case that somebody just, it’s really bad care If somebody just jumps on somebody and starts pressing at them and doing all sorts of shit without it being conversation and process and all that training, that’s bad. That’s not good. And then what is good is a slower process and a relational process. [00:48:30] And even if that person isn’t traumatized in any way, they had a really kind of charmed life. It’s still a no-no, it’s an extra no-no for the people with deep trauma and heavy wounds.

(00:48:50):
So my point is there’s a certain level of self sorting that we really should hopefully see. And then there’s a level of screening that we should work on to [00:49:00] say, breath work isn’t for you. You really should go do a bunch of psychotherapy or something. You should work on these things. And then that’s also traumatic though, to kick them out automatically. That sucks. That’s another exclusionary thing. So maybe the move is a conversation to just say, Hey, you can be in the room, maybe just breathe really lightly and we’ll have it be kind of a private arrangement where [00:49:30] you’re going to have special treatment that allows you to still be in the room and participate in a way so you can have a little bit of agency and you’re not just excluded because you’re sick or wounded. Does that make sense? Yeah,

Kyle Buller (00:49:42):
Totally. I mean, I’ve definitely had those conversations with folks that have signed up and then they kind of get a little anxious and tell me a little bit more of their life story. And I’m like, if you want to back out now, that’s totally fine. You don’t need to participate in this. And then I [00:50:00] always say, you could treat it as a meditation if you want to do that. And sometimes people do do that, and they have really profound experiences. And I say, don’t focus on the intensified breathing. Just maybe lay down and listen to some music and do some more regulation that way. And sometimes people really enjoy that, right? And instead of needing to have this really big cathartic thing, maybe this is an opportunity for them to feel a little bit of calmness and kind of go on a little bit of a musical [00:50:30] journey instead. But yeah,

(00:50:34):
And I just think about, you said something that made me think about an experience I had. The importance of even having your handheld, I remember it was during academy training and again, reliving this near death experience, and it’s just really a lot for my nervous system to process at times. And I was so thankful I reached my hand out and my sitter held my hand, and I needed that. And [00:51:00] to say, that shouldn’t happen, saying, no, you shouldn’t do that at all. That was actually really grounding, and I really needed that during that time. I’m like, oh, thank God that person was there just to hold my hand for five, 10 minutes. And that can be really, really important for some folks,

Joe Moore (00:51:21):
Right? Yeah. I’m trying to think of where to send people. We’ve never trained people in body work or to do [00:51:30] body work, but I think places that they can go, and I wish there was more accessible workshops on this, but the Grof transpersonal training has some body work modules. The dream shadow group has some bodywork modules, but you’d have to be in their program to really take those and kind of committed to the training. Then there’s GR legacy training, which would do some, I think taking some of these other kind of trainings, I think somatic experiencing as an example [00:52:00] of something that maybe people take that training to become more somatically literate. Is there much bodywork in somatic experiencing? I don’t really know offhand.

Kyle Buller (00:52:09):
Not that I’m aware of. No.

Joe Moore (00:52:12):
It’s kind of like moving an awareness and being with the parts inside and whatnot.

Kyle Buller (00:52:18):
There was one training that somebody runs, I can’t remember her name, but it’s like a somatic psychedelic touch training. Oh, is it the

Joe Moore (00:52:29):
Unwind [00:52:30] Oakland with

Kyle Buller (00:52:31):
Sues? No, but they are Bay Area based. It’s like relational touch maybe. I’m sorry for who? Yeah, we can put it in the show notes. They presented with us one time, and I’m spacing on their name.

Joe Moore (00:52:47):
And it’s hard for us to validate what trainings are amazing and what are not. We know we know stuff that are whole trip breath work adjacent. We don’t really have enough data to suggest [00:53:00] other trainings on this. And I would say it’s really new. So if you’re going to do this stuff, you got to be wildly careful

(00:53:08):
Because any harm to somebody can come back and give the psychedelic movement a black eye. And we want to be as in integrity as possible so that legalization keeps rolling out and that people keep getting help because when there’s harms, it actually [00:53:30] slows people getting access. Think about cardiac surgery, like 20 cardiac surgeries of a certain kind, start failing. Then all of a sudden people are going to stop getting cardiac surgeries of that kind. And so it’s like those people that needed it didn’t get the help and may have died. And I think we’re in such a crisis around mental health that we really need to take it really seriously. Everything we do with drugs and everything we do with psychedelics [00:54:00] and breath work for that matter, we have a lot of responsibility.

Kyle Buller (00:54:06):
And I think a lot of learning to do too. We are still really early. There’s a lot of learning to do. And I think we also need to continue to question certain practices and techniques, and to your point, is it harming somebody? And to be really truthful about that, me having to sit with that Peter Levine thing, I was so [00:54:30] triggered by it, but I’m like, no, were there times where it is maybe a little too much, which helped me to evolve my thinking around it and being like, yeah, maybe I don’t need to do this really big thing and blow my system out. What if I took a different approach here and found safety in my nervous system first before just I’m just going to jump into the deep end and blow it out. So yeah, I think we have to take, do our own self-inquiry too, and think about those times where it’s like, yeah, [00:55:00] did we cause harm doing a certain practice, or did I mess up here? And I think that’s really important for us to just constantly hold and think about and reflect on.

Joe Moore (00:55:13):
Yeah, exactly. This is a new field. The science of psychology is young. Nevermind the science of psychedelics in psychology and psychotherapies and psychiatry. This is a major innovation in a field that’s already quite [00:55:30] relatively well developed, maybe is a way to put it. But yeah, early days I think is the best way to put it here. And just because your shaman does it doesn’t mean you should do it. And just because you feel like you have the mood of shamanism going doesn’t mean that you should do that and really question it. Find accountability partners. There’s so much here in terms of improving safety. So [00:56:00] yeah, just be safe out there. I’m really encouraged that we can have these conversations more openly now because touch used to be the thing we can’t talk about. And now you can, I feel

Kyle Buller (00:56:11):
Like it’s still touchy subject, but I think we need to talk about it because people are doing, and if we’re not having conversations about it, then I think that’s where harm continues to happen. So if there’s that fear of even discussing it and people are doing it, I think that just continues. But we need to just have [00:56:30] ethical and real conversations about it.

Joe Moore (00:56:36):
So what kind of stuff did we miss? Anything here? I think it was relatively complete on this topic, I think so anything major?

Kyle Buller (00:56:48):
Yeah, I think just talking really about the safety, the agency, that concept of this should be more of a supportive practice than a doing practice for folks. And again, [00:57:00] just think about that acronym, wait, why am I talking? Why am I treating? Why am I touching? And is this really for you or is it for the person? And if it’s for you, bring that in and sit with that a little bit more. Is it because I’m bored? Am I feeling anxious? Do I feel like I’m not being enough right now? And really sit with that.

Joe Moore (00:57:25):
Yeah. Cool. Well, I think that’s good for [00:57:30] right now. So let’s chat a little bit about how people might be able to follow us and what we’ve got coming up. So October 20, you’ve got a class coming up with Dr. Ito Coen. Can you talk about that one a little bit?

Kyle Buller (00:57:42):
Yeah, it’s called Advanced Shadow Work and Psychic Integration. It seems to be perfect as it’s floating down there on the screen. Yeah, so advanced shadow work, this is a class that Dr. Ito co and I have been teaching for the past. I think this will be our third cohort. We run it every [00:58:00] year during the fall. And really to talk about how psychedelics can bring the shadow up. What is the shadow? What’s the golden shadow? How can we work with these experiences within ourself and with clients that we might be working with? So yeah, if you’re interested in digging into the shadow, learning about how to work with it, we do try to make it very experiential also with journaling prompts and activities. So we’re actually engaging in that work. That will kick off on [00:58:30] October 20th. That’s a Monday happening on Monday mornings, I think at nine Pacific. It’s 12 Eastern. And yeah, we would love to have you, I know we’re kind of getting close to our seats filling up there, so if you’re interested in diving in, join us. Yeah, we usually run this live only once a year around the fall. Kind of go with the seasons.

Joe Moore (00:58:55):
Great. And then what else do we have coming up? We’re going to be putting out [00:59:00] a number of new classes. I think we’ve got a music one. I’m going to be putting out a digital security one. I’ve taught a few times that’s going to be really good. So music and psychedelic sessions, digital security for the psychedelic set. It’s really important these days that we really stay on top of privacy. What other stuff do you have in development?

Kyle Buller (00:59:21):
We have a spiritual emergence course, a somatic and trauma course, and then also a course on inner work [00:59:30] for psychedelic integration. Those are going to be probably a mix of live and prerecorded.

Joe Moore (00:59:37):
And then those are things hopefully that we’re going to have available for navigators.

(00:59:44):
So if you join navigators, one of the cool things we’re trying to develop is a library of courses because we know it’s intimidating to jump in and spend a few hundred bucks or more like thousands of dollars some times for classes. And how do you know that you want to do that kind of thing? It’s [01:00:00] very complicated, and we’re going to make that more accessible for everybody by adding courses into that subscription based program at navigators. So psychedelic state.com/navigators, it’s going to be as many courses as we can throw at you in there. I just love the idea of having a huge library of courses for people because more people with more education makes this scene better. I agree.

Kyle Buller (01:00:23):
I agree.

Joe Moore (01:00:24):
Yeah, especially in community, if you have other peers you’re learning with, that’s just [01:00:30] so amazing. And I think it’s really important that people just keep, there’s no end to what you can learn here. When I kind of made the decision to go all in on psychedelics today with you, Kyle, I remember saying, there’s enough here for me to commit the rest of my life. No problem to learning.

Kyle Buller (01:00:50):
It’s endless. And

Joe Moore (01:00:51):
Not being bored,

Kyle Buller (01:00:52):
Never,

Joe Moore (01:00:52):
Ever going to be bored might get annoyed, but that’s mostly about personalities. But the idea that you could really [01:01:00] ever have it figured out, it’s bonkers. It’s not a thing. And there’s so many angles to look at, everything from pharmacology to culture to history, to the different drugs, it it’s wild. So in community with lots of education, we can develop a lot of new interesting things together, and we just really want to support a good, healthy, holistic culture around psychedelics. And that’s what we’ve been up to for years, and that’s what we want to do even more with navigators. So [01:01:30] please, folks, check us out, support us psychedelics today.com/navigators, and we would love your support. Any other kind of cool stuff you want to mention about the navigators program?

Kyle Buller (01:01:41):
No. Yeah, we’re excited to finally kick this off and excited to get to know everybody that’s signing up. And to your point, just about the education library, just really trying to build that out. And yeah, hopefully it makes it a little bit more accessible than buying some of those courses at a bigger price. It’s that subscription [01:02:00] and being able to learn in community. We’ll host open office hours times to get together and chat about all the stuff. So yeah, really, really hoping to see all there. And yeah, I just want to give Peggy a shout out on LinkedIn there. She’s dropping some really great stuff in there and doing a presentation on touch and something that she just mentioned in McQueen’s training, this concept of 78% on self and 70% on client. So again, yeah, it’s like that [01:02:30] wait thing. And thanks for all your support there, Peggy.

Joe Moore (01:02:33):
And Peggy just said some nice things about our integration workbook and trip journals, and you find those@psychedelicsay.com or on Amazon. Those are, I forget how well they sell on Amazon. It’s doing really great over there. So thank you everybody who buys those in print over there and wish we weren’t supporting Amazon, but we do what we can do. Yeah. Well, thank you, Kyle. This has been lovely. Thank you all for tuning in out there. [01:03:00] Yeah. Hopefully we get to do more soon.

Kyle Buller (01:03:05):
All right. Take care. Bye.

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors or inaccuracies.

All transcripts are generated by software. Please excuse any errors.

Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back. Psychedelics today joined by Greg Shankin. How are you today, Greg?

Greg Shanken: Doing awesome. Great to be here.

Joe Moore: Yeah, happy to have you. Um, we get to hang out just last week, which was nice. Yeah. In Boulder. Yeah. Thanks for the help there. And, um, of course, glad to have you on to talk about your event and all the interesting stuff you’re up to.

Joe Moore: Um, so Collaborate is coming up just to get ahead of it and then we’ll kind of back into the rest of the podcast. Uh, collaborate is coming up real soon. What is Collaborate?

Greg Shanken: Collaborate is a, uh, multi-state and online event that we are doing with Pata. When I say we, I wear quite a few hats. So this hat is the Colorado Psychedelic Society.

Greg Shanken: We’re a nonprofit that promotes awareness, education, and community around. Responsible use of psychedelics. And so we teamed up with Pada, that’s the Psilocybin Assisted Therapy Association based in Portland on October [00:01:00] 4th, will be an online, uh, programming that’s more for facilitators and professionals in the field.

Greg Shanken: And then October 5th will be in person both in Portland and Boulder. And we’ll be doing some cool things to kind of tie the communities together and the events, uh, those two events together. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Awesome. That’s fantastic. Um, and I’m gonna drop a link in the comments here, folks. Um, if you want to help support the conference, check it out, and also help psychedelics today, higher frequency network slash pt.

Joe Moore: You can find out more, save a little bit of cash there and support psychedelics today. Cool. So Greg, you’ve been, um. Doing a lot of interesting things in this space for a while. Could you give us like, um, kind of a broad overview of the different things that you’re up to?

Greg Shanken: Yes, I’d be happy to do that. Thank you.

Greg Shanken: And so, [00:02:00] yeah, someone said to me last week, wow, it’s great how we wear all these different hats. And I said, do you have an extra hat rack laying around? And that person didn’t ’cause theirs was full too. So yeah, doing a lot of things, not, you know, nonprofit and, you know, for-profit to, you know, pay the bills.

Greg Shanken: So on the nonprofit side, as I mentioned, I’m the co-founder of the Colorado Psychedelic Society, um, which I co-founded after Prop 1 22 passed in November of, of 22. I was also an ambassador for Prop 1 22. So it was pretty amazing to, and an honor to really join that effort that summer. And then five months later have the bill pass.

Greg Shanken: And, you know, I kind of say tongue in cheek. Um, you know, people have been fighting for this since the sixties. Here I come along five months before. Yay, we won. Uh, so, you know, I played a, played a role there, small role in a huge team, getting out the vote efforts and fundraising and sharing my story. Uh, just really kind of embedding me with some of the leaders in the space.

Greg Shanken: [00:03:00] So it was really an amazing, amazing, uh, experience to be part of that. And so then we founded the, the Society. It’s a nonprofit, you know, volunteer effort. So we are, you know, of course, always looking for resources and collaborates will help us do that. So if you can attend, then that would be amazing to support our efforts there.

Greg Shanken: So I do that ongoing. Um, I also have owned a web development agency for 12 years called Gloss. And until my personal psychedelic transformation, which also started in 22, um, I wasn’t really feeling much passion about it. You know, if you asked me, Hey, what kind of businesses are you serving? I’d say, you know, like whoever comes along and that’s not really, um.

Greg Shanken: A good answer, but that’s the answer I have because I really wasn’t feeling passionate. And people say, find an industry you love and then serve it. And at the time I wasn’t feeling much passionate about anything. Uh, really I was, you know, kind of dealing with a lot of depression. And that’s kind of what led me to psychedelics.

Greg Shanken: Um, [00:04:00] and coming outta my first experience, which was Ayahuasca, January 22, was like, okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know what I, I know where, where I’m headed now. And, uh, so with my agency, started bringing in clients in the space and really honored to work with some, um, really amazing businesses and brands. Anyone from solo practitioners up to Ketamine clinics and, um, attorneys that serve the space, um, retreats, uh, you know, just, just wonderful, uh, training programs.

Greg Shanken: Just wonderful clients. Um, and I’m feeling really passionate about serving the space. So that’s, that’s been a really big part of my transformation. And then along with that, I, I’ve observed along the way that, um, a lot of students are coming through these training programs and they kind of maybe think that people are gonna beat the door down to work with them and, you know, it doesn’t really work that way.

Greg Shanken: So they, they need additional training outside of the heal, you know, of course the all important [00:05:00] training to be becoming a good healer, but we work in a, you know, capitalistic framework and you need to. A client. So I do business, web and marketing trainings. And actually the very first one I did was, uh, in 2023 with, uh, for Vital.

Greg Shanken: And that’s actually been a big part of, um, like a milestone for me because I’ve done that now for a bunch of other training programs. Uh, so I, I do that. And then most recently, uh, launched a private psychedelic marketing network called Higher Frequency Network. And you just shared that link. Um, and what I observed in my travels is that we need, and I say we meaning in our space, need a better way to, um.

Greg Shanken: So grow our businesses, but outside of the reach of the global ad networks like Google and Meta. Mm-hmm. And this was something I’d been, yeah. And I, I can pause if, uh,

Joe Moore: uh, [00:06:00] yeah, just torture, it’s tortured to like, just not have any accountability and just how much effort we’ve all invested there. Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: It’s crazy. Yeah. So thank you for putting in some effort here.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s, and it’s kind of a wild, um, synchronicity because before I had my agency, I was, um, in the affiliate marketing and lead gen space for five years. And I actually, one of the bigger reasons I stopped doing that work was, it’s a very, it is a very impersonal and transactional space, which doesn’t make it bad, but for me, it wasn’t really feeling aligned.

Greg Shanken: You kind of join these networks and you kind of find something to sell and make some money with. I mean it like, that’s kind of the. Calculus involved. Like, can I sell it? Can I make money with it? And like the rest is whatever. And so that was no feeling aligned and I thought I left that world behind. I, I was, you know, I moved on to an agency and now serving the psychedelic space and about six, seven months ago it occurred to me, um, bunch of light [00:07:00] bulbs went on because when I was producing events or part of events, you know, we’d reach out to friends, colleagues, and everyone you reach out to is happy to help.

Greg Shanken: Sure. I’ll put this on my Instagram. Sure. I’ll tell, uh, my email list, you know, we we’re all willing to help ’cause we’re working towards a, a larger cause, which is a beautiful thing and so unique in this space. Um. With, with no, uh, you know, no expectation of a payment or return. Just, yeah, we’re here to help each other.

Greg Shanken: And it goes both ways. You know, friend calls me like, yeah, how can I help? Like that’s like, right, like, why we do this? Just spread healings, um, you know, spread mental health, uh, raise consciousness. And so we’re all willing to do that. And so let’s, how can we create an ecosystem around that that does a couple things.

Greg Shanken: One allows us to expand our reach, meaning we can meet people that maybe we otherwise might not have known. And my net, my network or my CEO map has gotten pretty big, but it’s not, [00:08:00] it’s not, uh, you know, absolute, I do not know everyone in this space. Um, and really nobody does, but it’s a small enough space that we’re kind of all like two degrees removed from everyone, right?

Greg Shanken: Um, and so I, I noticed that, and then as you know, Joe, this, uh, crazy social media purge started. About five months ago, um, and started hitting anyone from small nonprofits to large nonprofits, everyone in between. I believe that you were maybe ensnared in in some of that.

Joe Moore: Oh, absolutely. Still am.

Greg Shanken: Still am.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. And it, it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s not fun, right? No,

Joe Moore: no. Not fun. I mean, business is hard enough.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Right, right.

Joe Moore: Business under censorship is even harder. Turns out.

Greg Shanken: Yes. And, and you know, for those of you listening, um, basically, you know, meta being Instagram, Facebook started shutting down [00:09:00] accounts in this space.

Greg Shanken: You get an email saying your account’s been permanently deleted, and go f yourself. And so, um. I mean, that’s the implied, you know, go after yourself. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, they’re, they’re too polite to, to curse. They just say, you’re done. So they are polite. That’s, that’s nice. Uh, and I’ve had friends caught in this colleagues, and sometimes you get your accounts back, but then you have to, you know, have that anxiety of will it go away?

Greg Shanken: And then people say, well, wait, this is, these are just the algorithms, but guess what? Humans create algorithms. So whether it’s humans mm-hmm. Algorithms, the bottom line, it’s happening. So anyway, yeah. Long, a little bit long-winded wave, but also important context of how I launched higher frequency. So, um, again, wild synchronicity and affiliate marketing ecosystem.

Greg Shanken: We need this in our space. Accounts are getting shut down. And so that birth higher frequency, which in business terms is known as an affiliate marketing [00:10:00] network. A lot of folks don’t know necessarily what that means if you ever work in the space. But an affiliate relationship is a business, wants to sell something, an affiliate sells something on behalf of that business and earns a commission for doing so.

Greg Shanken: That’s it. So higher frequency is that for the psychedelic space. However, what makes it unique is a, it’s not going to be anonymous community. We will be inherent in the platform. So instead of Joe being, you know, affiliate, 1, 2, 9, 7, 6, you know, it’s, it’s Joe Moore, it’s Greg Shankin. Um, we’re all going to meet and know each other.

Greg Shanken: Um, so we can understand. The offers and promotions that we’re doing and then help each other gain exposure. And it’s all managed within the network. Payments are managed, ability to browse offers, you know, it’s all within higher frequency. And so the, the buzz so far has been pretty remarkable, um, because of, you know, the, the pains and challenges of working in this space period.

Greg Shanken: And [00:11:00] then, hmm, our account’s getting shut down, just like you pointed out. Like it’s hard enough man. Like, so that is what higher frequency is and pretty, pretty stoked about it.

Joe Moore: That’s great. So we kind of fit a lot in to that. So I wanna kind of like rewind the tape. Were, were psychedelics really ever part of your world before that ayahuasca moment?

Joe Moore: Like, were you curious about it, um, thoughtful in any way? Or how did that roll for you?

Greg Shanken: Thank, I mean, thanks. Yeah. Thanks for the question. Mm-hmm. My, it’s my answer, uh, sounds cliche because it really. Is kind of cliche, you know, doing lots of mushrooms in college and seeing the Grateful Dead. And I kind of dates myself, and I’m not talking about Dead and Co.

Greg Shanken: I’m talking about the Grateful Dead with Jerry Garcia and I really dated myself. Um, and I’ve, you know, I had a lot of beautiful spiritual experiences with that and being in those settings. However, I didn’t know at that [00:12:00] time its role in healing. I, you know, that, that, that just wasn’t in my, uh, purview and we’re talking, you know, decades ago at this point.

Greg Shanken: But yeah, I mean, amazing experiences just with, you know, live music and jam band music and, um, you know, grateful Dead and Phish and Jazz Fest and festivals and jam, you know, so I’m a huge, huge, huge live music fan, uh, in that world. Um, but back then no, didn’t, didn’t understand how it was connected to.

Greg Shanken: Healing. And so, I mean, I can share how I then ended up, uh, at Ayahuasca if, uh,

Joe Moore: yeah, please.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. So, um, I’ve struggled with depression, uh, my whole life really. And, you know, depression’s, um, you know, it sucks. It sucks. Uh, and, and so I’ve been on meds SSRIs for, uh, 10 [00:13:00] years and SNRIs for 20 years and a DD meds for five or six years.

Greg Shanken: And for me, they quote worked, meaning I was not treatment resistant. They did what they’re designed to do, which is tamp down those symptoms. Mm-hmm. And so they worked for me. Um, but as a famous, um, songwriter, said, and maybe you’ll recognize the lyrics, um, if you can heal the symptoms but not affect the cause.

Joe Moore: Hmm. It’s

Greg Shanken: quite a bit like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze. So, and that’s, uh, Anastasio from Phish. So gotta get some song references in there. Hope you’re not, hope that’s cool with you, Joe. I’m not,

Joe Moore: I’m not too closeted. Just a little.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. So, but that, that, that line really resonates because that’s what, um, a lot of these, you know, medications do.

Greg Shanken: So I, I was not depressed, but I, I went back into therapy and [00:14:00] in one of the first sessions, and this is being on meds, my therapist said, Hey, Greg, uh, you know, where do you feel this in your body? And literally the question did not compute. I was like, what the fuck? What are you talking about? Hmm. Body, like, you know, I have no black and blue marks.

Greg Shanken: And, and that was a huge wake up call. It really showed me how disembodied I was and the price I was paying for being on these meds. Um, and by the way, I don’t condemn prescription meds if they’re working for someone and you’re okay with the side effects and you’re happy, like, I’m super happy for you.

Greg Shanken: But for me, I decided to take a different path. And so that led me to Ayahuasca. I joke, I went like zero, from zero to Ayahuasca. Uh, you know, even though I’ve had like the recreational background. Um, so that’s what led me to Ayahuasca in January 22. And of course I had to titrate off the meds to do that safely, which I did.

Greg Shanken: And I’ve been off those meds ever [00:15:00] since. And yeah, I mean like all of us, I could keep going about the, um, on, about the journey. And you can, you can prompt me, but that’s how I’m kind of curious. You went

Joe Moore: like, did you go domestic? Did you go international? Um, yeah, kinda like a church route.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. I, I went domestic.

Greg Shanken: Um, it was a referral from a psychedelic healing coach friend I have in, in Oregon and mm-hmm. He referred me to an amazing guide in, um, actually Malibu and that’s where it was. And not to fast forward too much, but then I went back to her earlier this year for two bufo sits, so my first Bufo experiences.

Greg Shanken: So, um, but yes, and then I went on two other retreats that year, also domestic and all of them transformational in so many ways. But a month after about a month, almost to the day after each retreat, my depression would come back, and then that led me to other medicines like Ketamine and Bufo. And um, you know, now after three and a half years, I [00:16:00] feel like some.

Greg Shanken: Progress is, is being made. There are lots, you know, lots of winds along the way, but if you ever saw that healing graph, um, with my finger going up and down here mm-hmm. Straight line graph gradually up, but holy crap. Lots of, yeah, lots of tears and pain and, but also, you know, redemption and coming through it, so, yeah.

Greg Shanken: Yeah, yeah.

Joe Moore: So, um, in some ways you must have had some kind of, I don’t know, training wheels came off a little bit with your experiences in the festival and kind of concert and live music world, right? Like, it wasn’t, it wasn’t like going from, you know, all you know, is a martini to, to ayahuasca. It was like a little bit like different of a transition than you might see other folks have.

Joe Moore: Or how do you see that?

Greg Shanken: Do you, do you mean different? [00:17:00] Or how, how do you, I just wanna make sure I understand.

Joe Moore: Like, so you’re going from zero to Ayahuasca, but you’re not really going from zero to Ayahuasca. ’cause you’ve been to all these other experiences and been deep into music and, you know, I’ve had a similar path, but I had, you know, a outrageous amount of breath work experience before I went into Ayahuasca.

Joe Moore: But that was breath work to ayahuasca, not breath breathwork music. Ayahuasca. Yeah. So it was like, right. Um, but you know, after, after too much fish and Burning Man and whatever, you know, assorted boats, like how do I like, you know, it’s, it’s not a, it’s not a zero to ayahuasca moment for me in, in that perspective.

Joe Moore: You know what it, does that make sense?

Greg Shanken: Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I hear what you’re saying. Um, yeah, and I still, I still, uh, enjoy recreational psychedelics, uh, for sure. And I, I think that it does. You know, going from recreational psycho nott to [00:18:00] transformational psychedelic experiences, and maybe that’s kind of the context you’re asking about.

Greg Shanken: Um, and yeah, so it’s, it’s not exactly like zero to ayahuasca, but certainly on the healing side it was. But you know, having those recreational experiences, um, definitely helped. Give me kind of a context of, of being in community and bringing in love. Right. Uh, I definitely feel that and live music experiences and, um, and, and gratitude also.

Greg Shanken: So, you know, there, there are, uh, you know, overlap right between recreational and, and, um, and healing. And then obviously each, each of those containers have very, uh, you know, unique aspects as well. Right? Yeah.

Joe Moore: It’s interesting, right? It’s like, um, uh, oh, my video broke. Yeah. I see, I [00:19:00] saw that. I saw that.

Joe Moore: Interesting. That’s a first, I think, but yeah. Um, all of a sudden your eyeballs don’t work and you don’t know they’re Right. Orientation. So, yeah. I, I, I, I guess I really push the limits in a lot of these recreational scenarios as many do. And like, I think, I think I’ve found it helpful, um, for, for being able to handle higher dose kind of weirder things.

Joe Moore: ’cause it was like, okay, for five days I’m not really gonna have an orientation. So like, so what if it’s two hours of not having kind of habituated to it? So I felt it was kind of like a, a weird preparation in a way, um, for being able to do the bigger, more interesting, weirder things. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. And at, at times, Greg, I actually kind of framed it as.

Joe Moore: I didn’t know we were gonna go here, by the way, as being like some sort of like music Pythagorean kind of cult, where you’re kind of like, it’s you and the music and the music’s doing really interesting things and [00:20:00] you’re, you’re kind of, uh, seeing behind the scenes in some ways by being with the music so deeply.

Joe Moore: Um, and with movement. ’cause often there’s dancing too.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Yes. I’ve been known to dance a little bit. Yeah. But no, that I, I, I love those comments because I, I, I hadn’t really thought of that parallel to, you know, the movement part, you know, being, being in our body. And I think that’s, you know, reflecting back as I’ve shared, you know, kind of being numbed out with the pharmaceutical meds, but music was still always my happy place.

Greg Shanken: And so much of that is, is the movement. I mean, I, it’s just. Oh yeah. You know, so somatic and the mo music moves you and you move with the music and with your friends and hugs and touch and love and so yeah. I, I, I, I think those recreational containers can certainly help set, set one up for, um, you know, deeper [00:21:00] psychedelic journeys on the, you know, healing side.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Moore: I don’t wanna like oversell it either. Right. There’s, there’s risks, there’s concerns of course, like people fall off hard sometimes and can have a really hard go. So it’s, you know, it’s not beginner terrain folks. Um, yeah. So, you know, be careful just like with all of it. This is not, you know, a clear, easy pathway.

Joe Moore: Um, and, um. Yeah, so, so it’s kinda interesting you, you access the services in, in Malibu. I think that’s like a, you know, it’s an iconic city in a lot of ways. It’s kind of like, you know, really having a hard time right now recovering from the fire, I’m sure. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it’s just like, um, there’s so much right there.

Joe Moore: There’s so much in Topanga, which is right next door to the canyon. Mm-hmm. It’s kinda like, you know, psychedelic central it seems like to me, or at least psychedelic hippie central. I don’t know Yeah. What the use is like there, [00:22:00] but it’s, um, it’s kind of analogous to Boulder. So you’re kind of like went from one to the other in a lot of ways, right?

Greg Shanken: Yeah. LA’s got a lot of, um, you know, in Southern California, San Diego, Santa Barbara, a lot of, a lot of friends communities. Yeah. A lot of, uh, in that, in that part of California. Of course growing everywhere now. But yeah, that’s where I. Ended up, and then the second one was outside Seattle. The third one was, uh, here in Boulder.

Greg Shanken: So. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Moore: That’s great. And was it like harrowing for you or was it just a look behind the curtains to say, oh, there’s a lot more here than I really was grappling with before? How did that kind of roll for you? You don’t have to get too specific, but, um, yeah. Feel free as much as you’d like.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Um, I’ve learned about myself that I’m, I’m an open book, so mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: I, I can get, I, I, I have, for whatever reason, I, it’s almost healing for me to be [00:23:00] vulnerable and. That’s another beautiful thing about this space. Um, walking around psychedelic science and getting lots of hugs and sharing our story. You know, being in this space, it’s like a, it’s just like a friendship accelerator, right?

Greg Shanken: You know, friendships take long to cultivate, but in this space they, they go fast and, and in the best possible way. And so for me, with my first experience, um, it was a two night ceremony and I did combo that morning. Didn’t know, even know what that was. The guide said, Hey Greg, you know, you’ve been titrating off the meds.

Greg Shanken: Um, let’s do combo. I said, okay, what’s that? And so that was wild. I’ve done done it quite a few times since. And I also make sure you, you’re asking about kind of like the first experience and how I. Came into this, is that,

Joe Moore: um, you know, like yeah, just give us whatever kind of narrative feels right. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Cool.

Greg Shanken: And I’ll keep it high level, but yeah, for, for just to give, um, [00:24:00] kind of a good context for anyone who’s considering this or, and I don’t see you anymore, so I’m not sure if popped off again. Okay, cool. Um, so yeah, ni night one was, and, and this kind of ties back to some of our discussion around the recreational side was, and I didn’t know anyone there, coincidentally, it was all women.

Greg Shanken: It was not a women’s retreat. That was just, uh, uh, uh, that’s, that’s just what it was. Mm-hmm. And I have Joe, I’ve never left so hard in my life and I’ve left a lot in my life. And, you know, in the settings we’ve talked about and some of the fun substances that we’ve done, and I mean, like my ribs were sore the next day.

Greg Shanken: It was just this joyous, buoyant. I, it was, it was just amazing. I’m like, this, I knew enough to know that that wasn’t the norm. I could also hear so many others in the room crying and not having this fun experience to the point where I was becoming actually self-conscious about it.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. [00:25:00]

Greg Shanken: And the next night was, um, the most terrifying night of my life, even to this day, after doing a lot more psychedelics.

Greg Shanken: I mean, I, I, I, yeah, man, it was my interpretation of that, and through integration was that grandmother as ayahuasca sometimes known, was showing me what I had not been experiencing. You know, I was kind of in this mid range of flat, which is what a lot of these meds are designed to do. Just keep you in this kind of, yeah.

Greg Shanken: Neutral range and night one, and I’m glad she did it in this order night one was, Hey, welcome to the Spirit world. Welcome to Ayahuasca, welcome to Plant Medicines. Have fun. And I did. And then the next night, holy crap. Wow. So kind of, she was bringing me to this full range of emotion that I had not been feeling for, you know, since I’d been on these [00:26:00] meds.

Greg Shanken: So, um, I’m glad she did it in that order. ’cause I think if it was reversed, I would’ve gotten on the next plane home. Um, but yeah, so that’s, that’s, that was my first retreat and it was, um, you know, I, I learned so much from it and took so much from it. And, um, that being, that being the big one, just like, Hey, Greg, hello, emotion.

Greg Shanken: You know, bring, bring it all in. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Where, where do you stand currently on kind of like the, the, um, planned animal derived psychedelics compared to like chemical psychedelics? Yeah. So you as an individual?

Greg Shanken: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I went on three retreats that years I shared. And when my depression came back after that third one, um, it was just, instead of going back into medicine, I said, I just want to, it was almost [00:27:00] like I just wanna see what happens.

Greg Shanken: Like, can I navigate through with other modalities? I have breath work being a big one. And I actually, it was my second retreat where we did breath work every morning and that was my, um, kind of, uh, welcoming into breath work. And I’m a huge breath work fan and practitioner. Um, I know you are too. And so, you know, I was in therapy, breath work, uh, you know, other yoga and.

Greg Shanken: My depression just kept getting worse and worse, uh, through that whole last three months. And so something had to change. So that’s when I started using Ketamine 23. Um, I am intramuscular and for me, ketamine’s been a really profound, powerful medicine. I walked into that first session, a, a as low, I’ll, I’ll say one step above suicidality.

Greg Shanken: I’ve had suicidal thoughts. Mm-hmm. But, but not, you know, in the danger zone. [00:28:00] And I walked in and had that session and came out. It was such, such a lift, such relief. I knew it wasn’t one and done, I knew, but it was just, it was just relief. And, and, and now it’s so clear to me how ketamine can save lives.

Greg Shanken: Pharmaceutical meds can save lives too, but they can take four to six weeks to kick in. This was like instant relief. Mm-hmm. Um. Wow. Uh, so I, I used ketamine. I, I actually did, IM ketamine almost every month for, for two years. And now I’ll get to your question, but, you know, so that’s like my chemical side of, uh, you

Joe Moore: know, in this, in this spectrum.

Joe Moore: Were you comfortable in that experience? Was it like a little too extreme?

Greg Shanken: No, I, I was very comfortable. I mean, it’s mm-hmm. You know, um, a, a as, as strong as a heavy dose of ketamine can be, it’s, it’s,

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: It’s a gentle on-ramp, and then you’re just kind of blasted into a ego dissolution. [00:29:00] So, um, and I’m talking about, you know, intramuscular heavy doses.

Greg Shanken: They’re also as, you know, you know, lower dose containers with

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: You know, in a therapeutic setting. I mean, I was being supported in therapy, you know, throughout. So it wasn’t just, uh, you know, get a shot and go home. I was, yeah. Still working with IFS and parts, um. But after two years of that, uh, I, I, I kind of realized, I sort of took it as far as it could go.

Greg Shanken: I, I, I just felt like I, I wasn’t gonna get more out of it. And that led me this year into, um, Bufo, so five M-E-O-D-M-T Bufo. I’ve had two sits and Wow. Uh, that has for me, Joe, just been completely transformation, you know, all these experiences have, but I just feel like Bufo has really, uh, I can just feel it as I’m talking, like, it’s just, I don’t know, I kind of feel like I found my medicine and in Bufo and [00:30:00] kind of getting back to our earlier comments, like that’s one that I, I don’t say this with ego, but it’s like, although I just did meet someone today, I said I went zero to Ayahuasca and he said I went zero to Buffo.

Greg Shanken: But I, but I don’t know if I’d necessarily recommend that. Like for someone who’s like never done psychedelics, to jump right into. It’s a bufo. And that’s just my context and feeling. I wouldn’t tell anyone what to do or not to do, but, you know, bufos, it’s ineffable. Hard to describe. But, um, so yeah, so I’ve come run the gamut with plant medicines and the, you know, um, chemical substances and they, they’ve, they’ve all given me benefits.

Joe Moore: So, have we ever had the talk about bufo?

Greg Shanken: No, but I’d love to. I, I, oh gosh. Oh yeah. Bufo. Let’s talk about it. [00:31:00]

Joe Moore: Um, yeah. I’m so glad, uh, that we’re talking about it. So, yeah. Um. This has ruined some friendships. I’ll put it out there. Um, and, uh, yeah, some people don’t talk to me anymore. Um, I’ve been working on this for years and years.

Joe Moore: Um, so have you heard of the concept of blood toad? No. Okay. Have not. Great. And I assume you’re talking about Toad Source five M-E-D-M-T. Right.

Greg Shanken: That’s what I’ve done. And, and I do know about the, the, you know, different viewpoints there, if that’s what you mm-hmm mean. Yeah. We’re getting

Joe Moore: into the conservation thing briefly.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Cool. Yeah, let’s do it. So like, um, the first person that kind of really laid it out well for me was this, um, herpetologist, so lizard researcher in outta Tucson, Robert via. Um, he’s been on the show a bunch of times. He’s written a really comprehensive paper on conservation, um, of the toad. So it kind of features a lot of really good, um, data points in there around, [00:32:00] um, actual reasons for concern, including that it’s like kind of officially declared extinct in New Mexico and effectively extinct in California as well.

Joe Moore: Um, now the cartel’s involved, we call those blood tot. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, so there’s actually illicit trafficking and it’s like if you are not doing it yourself, there’s no way to really promise that you’re not getting involved with like, you know, cartel affiliated toad. Yeah. Um, and by doing it yourself, you can actually harm huge swaths of toad population.

Joe Moore: You can actually introduce fungus that can kill huge amounts of them. Um, and then, uh, yeah, even if you pick them up, bring them somewhere. Harvest the venom, put them back down on the ground. You could introduce fungus, you could leave them defenseless in terms of like not being able to like, uh, defend themselves and or find their way home.

Joe Moore: A lot of people think, oh, it’s towed, [00:33:00] there’s no home. It’s like, well, no, you kinda like, learn your little home area, just like mm-hmm. Just like a lot of mammals do. And you can protect yourself easier when you know the environment. Um, and then there’s this, uh, researcher who’s on our advisory board, melon og uh, Melin maybe.

Joe Moore: Um, she published some of the first papers talking about how synthetic five M-E-D-M-T is subjectively identical to, um, toad sourced. And so there’s an actual research and pretty good sample size kinda showing that. Um, so. It’s a, it’s a really long, big conversation, but yeah. You know, just the long and short, uh, especially with the decline in the populations, radically seeing a decline.

Joe Moore: Um, and Mike Tyson and other big name people hyping it. Yeah. I just don’t see how it’s conditionable con, you know, like how can we have a good conscience while we’re consuming toad sourced five, when the synthetic is available. You know, [00:34:00] if it’s a really, really religious thing, perhaps it could be done like once a decade or something, and the other stuff could be safer, you know, more safely used, um mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Because it’s only like three to $5 to per dose, probably for synthetic, maybe less. Um, and then I just, yeah. So that’s my story. I’m sticking to it. I always have, I haven’t found a reasonable reason, um, to deviate yet. You know, perhaps there is a spirit of the toad that’s helpful, but it’s like, let’s sacrifice the toad.

Joe Moore: Um, to the extinction bucket for our benefit. It like, doesn’t really feel like the right thing to me. Um, and again, you know, the way I phrase it is often a little too harsh and I’ve lost friends over it, but it’s a real thing. And I even wrote a pretty big, um, article on it, like kind a month or two ago, I think right before I burnout.

Joe Moore: Put that up. So that’s my story. Is that largely what you’ve heard?

Greg Shanken: Yes. In large part it hasn’t. And I, I read, um, I did read your article, I think you posted it [00:35:00] on LinkedIn or at least linked to it from LinkedIn. And, and I, you know, I was already aware of that school of thought and also through, you know, leaders like five, you know, Joel Brier and Victoria from Tin Retreats and that, that’s their viewpoint.

Greg Shanken: Um, and so, well first of all, you haven’t lost a friend in me, but you also said it was the way you said it. Maybe, maybe you said it really harsh to me. You were very, very, um, yeah, just measured about it. Uh, so. We, we we’re definitely still friends for sure. Um, so yeah, I’ve, you know, like I said, I’ve had two sit, um, and this isn’t in a saying this in a, in a defensive posture, you know, I, I know that the guy I sit with is, um, you know, ethically sourcing it and, but still to your point, doesn’t matter how quote, ethical it’s being done, there are still a lot of, you know, landmines around this, be [00:36:00] it cartel or, yeah, like you said in introduced.

Greg Shanken: So, yeah. And then in terms of the experience itself, what I, what it is that it high doses, it kind of feels the same at lower doses, maybe it is a different experience. I’ve done the high dose. Um, but anyway, I, you know, obviously I, I want to be, you know, ecologically responsible. And so, you know, my two sets have been with Bufo, the Toad and mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: Um, but. I’m aware of these, you know, um, some of the conflicts around it. And so, yeah, as I sit here right now, I’m not married to one and I’m not gonna come and punch, punch back on the other side of that. It’s, you know, I’m navigating my way through it and mm-hmm. I always bring a beginner’s mindset, so, you know, uh, yeah.

Greg Shanken: So Cool.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for hearing that. And it’s like always a hard one for me. I a similar position on peyote. I just try to tell white folks to stay away. Mm-hmm. Like, there’s no, [00:37:00] there’s no real reason why we need to be doing it. Yeah. Unless it’s some sort of crazy, sincere religious in interest and, um, good friends that really want to bring you into NAC.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. NAC is so politically complicated. I, I like, there’s, there’s all sorts of branch offs and, um, complicated politics there. So I, I just try to say, Hey everybody, this is really hard. Maybe. Back off for a while. Um, yeah. And maybe there’ll be a good landing eventually for us. And that was, it’s so hard.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah,

Joe Moore: that’s

Joe Moore: all.

Greg Shanken: Um, yeah, I was just reflecting back that prop on 22, that was one of the, um, big carve outs that it was mescalin, not peyote in the bill. Mm-hmm. Oregon did not do that. Whenever I talk about any differences between Colorado and Oregon or enhancements, I say it with the utmost of respect.

Greg Shanken: And then I do, I do the, do this like the bow down ’cause they were the first. Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: And so, thank you, Oregon and New Mexico can say [00:38:00] thank you Colorado, but they can also say, Hey, Colorado, you’re making mistakes. So that was a really, um, responsible piece of the bill here. That it was masculine, but specifically not peyote.

Greg Shanken: And that was out of respect for, you know, indigenous lands and you know, the themes that you’re sharing.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. And to go a little further, I guess this indigenous reciprocity and like, not encroaching too much conversations coming up a lot. I’ve heard, um, a lot of pushback on the mushroom stuff in Oregon and in Colorado because of the lineage with the matech.

Joe Moore: And I think there’s something to look at there. I don’t know the answer. Um, some people say slow down. I, I try to pivot and say LSD and MDMA, like they’re kind of ours. So like, let’s lean into the molecules that are ours and, and don’t necessarily have such a complicated background. And, um, yeah. I just, you know, it’s a, it’s a very complicated time to be doing, [00:39:00] um, kinda legalization work and, and popularization work.

Joe Moore: We wanna be delicate when we can and, um, yeah. Make space for being delicate if we can everybody.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed on that. Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: I’m sure you’ve bumped into some interesting hard conversations there. Have you any particular stories around that?

Greg Shanken: Yeah, I mean, during the campaign, um, and at this point I was new in this space and I, so at that point I was surprised to hear that there were people, you know, kind of very much in our world, Joe, people that we see at conferences and that, you know, and say hi and hug, um, that we’re against Prop 1 22.

Greg Shanken: Hmm. And again, this is Greg three years ago, certainly more naive than I was. Like, what, how, Hmm. How could you be, how could you be against this? I don’t mean to the general population because there’s a lot of people outside our space who think drugs are evil and yada yada. I’m talking about people [00:40:00] in our world.

Greg Shanken: And I was like, what it, and they felt it didn’t go far enough, or that it didn’t do enough for, you know, respect for indigenous rights and reciprocity. Mm-hmm. Um, and I was at a, I was at a conference and. Someone stood up and, and really was very vocal about it. I, I guess I don’t really wanna name names, but it, it got pretty uncom.

Greg Shanken: It got very uncomfortable. And again, this was someone in our space and yeah, it really, it really shook up, it really shook up the room. Um, so yes, even with our, in our small, wonderful, beautiful community, there still will always be factions, right? Whether it’s Bufo versus five MEO or peyote, you know, versus Right.

Greg Shanken: Or like you said, like, hey, like let’s stick with our molecules. So yeah, these are some of the thorny issues that we’re. Dealing with and navigating. Yeah.

Joe Moore: So what kind of stuff is exciting you about Oregon and Colorado? Collaborating on an event, [00:41:00] like collaborate and, and kind of scaling this stuff and helping figure it out together, because this is not an easy thing to solve for, right?

Joe Moore: This is a really complicated project. Um, but yeah. What would’ve has been exciting you?

Greg Shanken: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, so yeah, a lot of complexities in, in this space and it’s, you know, I, I value kind of the, the, the love affair between Colorado and Oregon and New Mexico. Come on in, and Alaska come on in. And, you know, it’s gonna be a, it’s a warm welcome for anyone who wants to be in this movement.

Greg Shanken: Even if you’re in a state that’s not at all, you know where you want it to be. Like, we’re, we’re all working together here. It’s just kind of funny when you look at a map and you see just lines and it’s like. On this side of the line, you can do this and that side of the line. You can’t do that, you know?

Greg Shanken: So what’s exciting is the excitement. I mean, it’s the growth in, in the awareness. And, you know, I, I always think about like the, the, I use the [00:42:00] persona of like the soccer mom in Iowa and the, you know, the mm-hmm. The, the PTSD, um, inflicted, you know, veteran in wherever Texas, right? And they hear Oprah talking about psychedelics.

Greg Shanken: And maybe they, they’re not tuned into this podcast ’cause they might not know it exists. Um, but, you know, certainly they know Oprah exists. Um, and so, or a friend says, oh, I read this article about microdosing and how it helps, you know, and it’s like, okay. But then she says to herself, or he says to himself, okay, like, now what?

Greg Shanken: Okay, where do I, mm-hmm. Where do I get access to this? How do I do it? How do I do it safely? Oh, wow. To do it legally, I have to fly to Oregon or Colorado. That could be really hard. Whether it’s taking care of the kids or just the money to do it, plus the cost of the journey. So you asked me what I’m excited about.

Greg Shanken: I’m pointing out these things that are challenges, but, and there are many, what I’m excited about is that people are coming and organizations are coming [00:43:00] together, whether it’s putting on events like collaborates to raise awareness and provide education around responsible use, harm reduction, um, you know, microdosing, which is a great pathway in or breath work, right?

Greg Shanken: Which as you know, we don’t need substances to, to get into, you know, um, you know, a mind altering or expanding journey and that’s a great pathway in. But, um, so there are many nonprofits and even for-profits that are doing amazing work to help with accessibility. So if you all mentioned, one is, thank you life, they’re out of Austin.

Greg Shanken: They raise money to help send people into ketamine treatment that cannot, may not be able to otherwise afford it. And then there are organizations like Althea, which. Just started what’s called the Forward Fund, and it’s very similar, but that’s for psilocybin. And then even with Collaborates, um, of course we’re selling tickets, but one of the options on the checkout page is pay what you can and we really mean it.

Greg Shanken: Pay what you can. If it’s a dollar, we want you in the door, [00:44:00] we want you in the circle, we want you learning, we want you asking questions. Um, and so I think that because all of us, kind of wherever we are, uh, uh, it, it may be the, some of the conflicts within it, we still wanna give everyone access. So that’s something I’m really excited about is collaboration, um, awareness, education, access, and the understanding that we, we, we just really need to, to do everything we can to make these medicines and, um, modalities accessible no matter your.

Greg Shanken: You know, income, geography, race, religion, you know, all those things that can divide us, but we’re not looking at it that way. So that’s a big thing that I’m excited about.

Joe Moore: Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. I love it. And there’s just so much room for improvement in the space and, um. Community building connection.

Joe Moore: ’cause a lot of what we lost, you know, I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, but I, you know, worked in corporate [00:45:00] software for 20 years and this, um, kind of like isolation, driving to the office, like, you’re traffic, your body hurts, you’re not moving very much, you’re not necessarily able to access the best foods all the time.

Joe Moore: And, um, you don’t get to be with the people you love the most, as much as you’d like. Um, and there’s just a lot of complicated factors around this kind of corporate thing and business thing Yeah. These days in America. And I think psychedelic can help us kind of, um, repair our relationship to that. Do you, do you tend to agree or how do you see that?

Greg Shanken: I, I do. And I, I know people who are doing, I’m sure you do too. Coaches that are working with executives or teams and bringing microdosing, breath work, um, you know, into that space to help people become better leaders or, you know, heart-centered leaders. In Boulder about three months ago, the second annual Conscious Entrepreneurs Summit.

Greg Shanken: And it was not a psychedelic summit, although, [00:46:00] you know, it was a psychedelics friendly crowd. But literally when it started, it was, um, you know, they put up the rules and one of the rules, you know, no pitching, no talk of metrics and spreadsheets and, you know, they obviously wouldn’t kick you out if you did that.

Greg Shanken: But it was like, that was the ethos, right? Like we’re, we’re here to become better leaders, entrepreneurs, founders, in a way that’s more aligned with, um, you know, those deeper values that, that cont tend to be overlooked or completely ignored in the, you know, conventional. Corporate settings and, and I worked in corporate software world too for a couple decades.

Greg Shanken: So I, I I feel you. And that’s why I would say, say, you know, these conferences, like, you know, when you were in the software world, Joe, did you ever go to like a trade show and get lots of hugs? I mean, I, I, I didn’t, um,

Joe Moore: I, so No, no. It’s people that just wanna drink really hard. Um, yeah. And I’m like, oh God.

Joe Moore: Like, I, you know, that certainly helped my [00:47:00] alcohol habit at the time, you know? Yeah, right. In negative ways, but mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s just shocking. You know, I, I had maybe one or two really, really sweet friends in corporate America. Mm-hmm. You know, um, and were they even American? And I think one was Chinese and Okay.

Joe Moore: And the others are probably Canadian, so it’s fascinating, you know. Yeah. Um, but yeah, not trade shows like that. No, no. It’s just a hug fest.

Greg Shanken: It is. It it is, it is. So, I, I think, um, businesses are waking up. Uh, and leaders are waking up and just re realizing maybe in, you know, in themselves, Hey, this, this, like what am I doing?

Greg Shanken: And why am I doing this? And um, and so I think once they have that transformation, psychedelics can be, uh, a, a big aid and, and, um, kind of raising consciousness and awareness and, and, and helping those leaders transform. And then once [00:48:00] one goes through that type of transformation as a leader, a founder, executive, um, you know, ideally that can then spread into the organization and that’s mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: A good thing. So I’m all, I’m all for that.

Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so who, who out there has been kind of an inspiration to you in kind of like digging in, um, to this kind of project with the enthusiasm you have?

Joe Moore: Yeah.

Joe Moore: And it’s okay to leave people out. They maybe,

Greg Shanken: well, I was about to mention you, but ah, um, and absolutely you leave me out.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Um, a big one has been Joe, the author of Fellowship of the River and great book. That’s where I, yeah, great book. And he has a new book, which I have not read yet, but you know, it, it, it’s, so, it’s called Fellowship of the River. And he’s, he’s a, um, western trained medical doctor. He is of Columbia descent.

Greg Shanken: And he went through his own [00:49:00] transformation in medical school where he was stressed out and freaking out. He went to the, you know, nurse’s office or doctor’s office on campus. ’cause he was having so much anxiety and they said, oh no, you’re just having, um, medical school syndrome, like, go back, you’re fine.

Greg Shanken: And he was, and he was, he was not fine. Uh, and I know that feel, I mean, he was not fine. And then he discovered the medicine. And, and so the, the book is really inspirational because he brings the western, the credibility of the western. You know, medical training, because there are good things about that.

Greg Shanken: You know, not all of it, but it’s not throwing the baby out of the bath water. Right. And, but then he became literally a shaman in Peru and opened up a retreat there. And so the book is really inspirational because he, because he has that credibility and literally he’s talking about Western medical principles and then singing econo to people and helping them, you know, solve and cure, um, IBS Yeah.

Greg Shanken: Anxiety, depression. So that, that’s been a, um, [00:50:00] he’s been a big one for me. Um,

Joe Moore: and I love that Scott Shannon did the four to this new book, by the way. I’m really excited about that and

Greg Shanken: Oh, cool. Yeah, I actually didn’t, didn’t, uh, didn’t notice that. Yeah. So that, that’s his new book. Um, so that’s been, that was a big one for me.

Greg Shanken: Um, I’m sure there, yeah, there, there definitely are. Others. Uh, but that, that’s one that sticks out. ’cause that was so early on in my mm-hmm. Uh, you know, um, transformational journey. Yeah.

Joe Moore: I would say Jerry Garcia.

Greg Shanken: Jerry Garcia. Yeah. Uh, yeah, if we wanna go there, that’s Oh, sure. Jerry Garcia Uhhuh, you know, I quoted Trey before and, you know, they’re both so, so spiritual and bringing that spirit into the music and, um, and then that music, bringing community and Yeah.

Greg Shanken: You know, we could go on and on about that and, and, [00:51:00] uh, maybe someday we will, but Oh yeah. Yeah. Lots of amazing musicians and their, their wisdom, so, yeah.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s fascinating. Um, so how about like worldview and metaphysics? So like a lot of people. Kind of, you know, they get that kind of corporate dead soul feel and then, you know, it’s not really much metaphysics.

Joe Moore: It’s like, am I gonna be able to make it through? Like, what’s, you know, what is morality and ethics and um, where’s my soul gonna go when I ize it? It’s not really there all the time when you’re just kinda like grinding and working. Right. And then stuff gets a little more exciting when psychedelics come in.

Joe Moore: Exciting in that you’re engaging in ideas in a felt way. Yeah. Like was there a big shift for you in kind of like lar I guess worldview, but in like a really big way, if you catch my drift? Like, you know mm-hmm. Philosophically and [00:52:00] spiritually.

Greg Shanken: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a great question. And, um, I mean, my worldview has certainly changed my relationship with, you know, money capitalism, um, having to rethink.

Greg Shanken: Who I am in contrast to what my little kid self LA would be and wanted to be and didn’t turn out to be, but realizing that that was being driven by young, traumatized parts of myself. And I’m in IFS parts work, so I can look at things from a parts perspective, though I still need help from my therapist to smack me and say, Greg, it’s your parts.

Greg Shanken: Stop on blending, um, you know, using parts work terminology. Uh, but I was thinking about this the other day ’cause I, I’m really, I’m really digging into ai. Definitely not an AI expert, but I’m, I’m immersing myself in AI and just absolutely blown away by it. And I listen to this, um, daily podcast. It’s called AI Daily [00:53:00] Brief.

Greg Shanken: It’s, it’s a really good podcast. It’s like 20 minutes and just gives you, um, and, and I’m learning so much from it in terms of how to think about AI and strategy and tools and, but then they’ll get into discussions about. Mergers and takeovers and 20 billion from, you know, this company buying that company.

Greg Shanken: And, and it’s like, I kind of want to know those things ’cause just to have like a pulse on what’s happening, like in the business part of it. But to your question, I’m just like, who the fuck, like 20 billion over here and 79 trillion. It’s like, what are we doing? Like what are we doing? Like they’re doing what they need to be doing, building a business.

Greg Shanken: But I don’t know. It’s like, it’s hard to explain. It was hard even when it like hit me, I was like, ah, ah. So, you know, so, um, so my, my worldview has, has, has dramatically changed in, in terms of just what it’s cliche, but like what, what are we here to do? What’s our meaning? What’s our purpose? What’s my meaning, [00:54:00] what’s my purpose?

Greg Shanken: And I’ve certainly come a long way in, in that within myself, but it just does get to that existentialism of like. What are we doing? And then as we talk about psychedelics, we, there’s a lot of good answers that we’re, we’re doing some cool stuff. Mm-hmm. We’re raising awareness and healing people. And now the healing centers are open here.

Greg Shanken: You asked me what I’m excited about. I’ve been to two open houses in the past month. Um, the Moru and Chariot two great, great, um, healing centers and the is a spinoff of Naropa, and Lamo is actually a client of mine. But just tying back to earlier, like, they had to spin off of Naropa because they were gonna lose their insurance policy because Naropa had a center for psychedelic studies, so they had to literally spin off new entity.

Greg Shanken: And that was a big, you know, pain in the ass. Um, but I was at their open house and it was like, there were tears, there were hugs. I mean, it was just so weaving it back to my comments, like a large part of [00:55:00] what we’re like, that’s what we’re doing. We’re we’re healing and, and helping each other. And, and then those other companies can talk about the.

Greg Shanken: $20 trillion, you know, takeovers and that’s fine, but it’s not where I’m spending a lot of my time in energy. Not what you’re here for. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Moore: Right. It’s more about building this kind of like mutual aid and support healing infrastructure where we’re, you know, able to actually get to know each other.

Joe Moore: Not always make it transactional in a

Joe Moore: Yeah,

Joe Moore: I need to buy your $20,000 pill kind of format. Yeah. But like, yeah, you know, there is a place for expensive treatments, everybody, but like a lot of this stuff we can do with much more affordable treatments, um, than, than that. And what Greg, how do you, we actually had a wrap the other day, I think it was Thursday, about, um, [00:56:00] the programs being like at a kind of disadvantage.

Joe Moore: Because the state kind of put in a lot of regulations ’cause the state needed to feel safe, um, doing such an edgy thing, which, you know, congrats to Colorado and Oregon for doing such a big thing, but you know, it’s now really expensive to access these services in a lot of ways. Um, like how do you, how do you like to think about this kind of, this phase of the larger psychedelic project and legalization versus decrim and, and these acts, this various access paradigms?

Greg Shanken: Yeah. So yes, I have a lot of, you know, feelings and thoughts around that. So it’s a good thing that these states are making these treatments, um, and healing modalities legal, because that’s gonna raise awareness and that’s gonna help, you know, bring this to more people and that’s a good thing. Um, but anything in the regulated model is [00:57:00] just going to cost more.

Greg Shanken: I mean, a healing center has a brick and mortar. Structure that they have to pay for, get insurance for, and, you know, adhere to the, the regulations. Um, and so the treatments are gonna be more expensive than going underground, you know, as you know, it’s, you know, 2,500, $3,000 for those treatments for, you know, my, um, psilocybin journey.

Greg Shanken: And if you’re coming from the outside, you’re, you’re that soccer mom or military vet dad. So you hear Oprah talking about psychedelics and then $3,000 and I gotta fly to Colorado. What the fuck? Like, what are these people doing to, you know, extract money from us? Now you and I know a lot of these people, they’re not there to extract money.

Greg Shanken: They’re there to heal, and then they gotta pay their rent.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: So it’s a, and then, you know, once you know about this, which I know you do, you know, two prep sessions, six or eight hour journey, two integration sessions, if you kind of like net that out, practitioner’s making about the same as what a therapist [00:58:00] would make, you know, one 50 to 200.

Greg Shanken: An hour, right? Mm-hmm. But if you just hear $3,000, then you’re gonna, and you don’t know anything else about it. It’s like, what the fuck? Right? So, um, and it’s hard work. It’s hard work. It’s draining work and I’m, I’m in training for it myself. And so, yeah, it’s, it’s obviously hard to be a client and it’s hard and draining to be a facilitator.

Greg Shanken: And so, um, but then, you know, you, you can do this, you can, you know, gain access to these underground, but if you’re that soccer mom, even the term underground sounds like a, you know, dirty basement when if it’s with someone reputable, it’s a beautiful ceremony space. It just means they don’t have a license from the state.

Greg Shanken: But now your cost could be a thousand dollars. And a lot of them say sliding scale, like pay, pay what you can, just like we’re doing with collaborates. And so, um, so I’m absolutely thrilled that there’s a regulated model. And yet, you know, [00:59:00] a lot of, brings up a lot of thorny issues and a lot of people that are even going through training and the training that I’m in, um, are choosing to go underground.

Greg Shanken: So I, I’m kind of touching on a lot of different aspects of it, but, and then of course, none of this is covered by insurance, but yet, and then there’s really wonderful organizations like, uh, uh, thank You Life for Ketamine and Althea for psilocybin that are helping on the accessibility side. So yeah, those are some of my, oh, I’ll just add a couple of things, which is that, you know, service centers in Oregon and they call ’em service centers there.

Greg Shanken: Um, I, uh, I’m not a branding expert, but I do have an eye towards branding and I said, doesn’t a service center, doesn’t that sound like a place where you kinda like, bring your car? One, it’s broken, but somebody made the decision to call them service centers, servicing your, you know, mind, spirit. And I’m just poking fun at Oregon.

Greg Shanken: ’cause again, thank you, Oregon, we call them healing centers here seems more aligned. Um, but you know, [01:00:00] some of them are already going outta business now. Some of them maybe shouldn’t have been in business. They didn’t have the business acumen and they just said, Hey, kind of like starting a dispensary, cannabis.

Greg Shanken: But I, but I don’t, that, I don’t think that explains all of, kinda some of the, um, you know, some of, some of those, uh, failures out there, business failures. But I have a client out there and she said, you know, we haven’t made money in a year and it’s been the best year of my life. That’s what she said. ’cause they’re seeing the healing.

Greg Shanken: They still gotta pay the bills. Um, you know, and then now we have the regulated model opening here and we’ll see how, how that plays out. So, yeah. Um, definitely can be on my soapbox there. But those are some of the sort of. Pieces of it that I see within this landscape.

Joe Moore: Yeah, it’s, it’s really a set of interesting things we just need to keep working on.

Joe Moore: I think you’re gonna help address that to some degree at collaborates and like, how do we actually start phrasing these things or [01:01:00] different kinds of offerings that are actually more attractive. ’cause you’re right, like this is, it’s a really hard sale. Um, but it’s, you know, it’s important to have these safe containers up, especially for people with like really serious issues and, um, yeah, or, and, or just vulnerable folks in general.

Joe Moore: Um, I think for some folks it’s really okay to offer what five hour sit, but for other folks it’s not, it’s very much not okay for that to be the only part of the offer. Mm-hmm. Um, it’s a really interesting thing that we’re all kind of trying to sort out together here. Yeah. So thanks for your efforts and, um, can you give us a plug for collaborative again?

Greg Shanken: Sure. So yeah, it’s a two day event. It’s gonna be amazing, amazing speakers, sponsors, vendors, exhibitors, experiential events. Um, Saturday’s gonna be, is online that is more for professionals in the space. Sunday Community Day Open to anyone and everyone, psychedelic, curious, Auts [01:02:00] facilitators, anyone. And that’s in Portland and in Boulder.

Greg Shanken: So if you go to Higher Frequency Network slash pt, P as in psychedelics, T as in today. So Higher Frequency Network slash pt. You can learn more about it, you can get a special 20% psychedelics today discount. And then you can also sign up for the Higher Frequency Network, which is the, um, private vetted psychedelic marketing network I mentioned earlier.

Greg Shanken: And join our launch list. We are in a beta launch now. All right. But please sign up if you have any interest at all. There’s no cost to join. Then a lot more will be coming out about that, uh, really in the next couple weeks. ’cause we have, the interest has been really, really strong. But as far as collaborates, that’s also a nonprofit event.

Greg Shanken: Um, you’re supporting nonprofit organizations like Colorado Psychedelic Society and Pada doing great work. And the accessibility piece, I’ll just say again, we are [01:03:00] selling tickets, but there is an option right on the page. Pay what you can and just come on in. Just pay, pay what? Don’t, don’t let that stop.

Greg Shanken: You get a ticket, come on in and let’s have some hugs.

Joe Moore: Yeah, I love that. Thanks so much for making it today, Greg. Thanks for sharing a bunch about your journey and your opinions and, um, excited to see where this goes and, um, not only with collaborates, but with higher frequency. So let’s keep it rolling.

Joe Moore: Thanks again. Thank

Greg Shanken: you. Yeah, thank you man. Great to be here.

Kyle Buller: Welcome everybody to Psychedelics. Today we are here at Psychedelic Science, um, and doing some interviews, and we’re here with Matt Xavier from the psychedelic dj. So super excited to dig into this topic, Matt.

So thank you for your time for, for being here.

Matt Xavier: Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. I’ve been looking forward to this for sure.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. How has psychedelic science been for you?

Matt Xavier: It’s been fascinating. You know, I thought you might ask that question. I’ve never been here [00:01:00] before. And the last, this is your first psychic conference?

This is my first one. Wow. And the conferences that I had done in the past, when I was running my record labels were all down in Miami or in Europe. I’d go to Sonar, I’d go to, um. To a winter music conference, and it was different back then. It was the late nineties, early two thousands, and we would run around and give out vinyl and just do a lot of that.

And it was always a hustle, but I was a different person back then. And so now I’m coming back around and I’m finally coming out about my work and sharing this, and I’m coming out here and, um. It’s been overwhelming in a lot of ways. There’s so much to do. I don’t have any time to even see any talks. I’m just working the expo room, promoting the book, but I’m, I’m having some really good interactions and, um.

I’ve rekindled some friendships here that, uh, there’s been healing here for me. Oh, amazing. Which has been great. You know, there was some, I had some, uh, some, you know, things not end out right with friendships and then I saw those people and we immediately healed that and that was great. Oh, that’s amazing.

[00:02:00] And then I thought about it, um, when I bumped into Joe yesterday, I walked right up to him and I’ve never met him before and there was an instantaneous connection. And he just immediately took me in and he starts showing me pictures of his, of his couch, DJ booth at Burning Man. And it was like, I had no problem going.

We should totally get together and mix records. And he was like, yeah, absolutely. And so there’s this like familial connection, not just. From, um, from psychedelics, but also the music and the DJing kind of put us just on an eye to eye level, which is what the raves scene is about. As I can travel anywhere in the world, drop right in and go, you’re on the same page with me.

And, um, and then we can immediately, you know, drop into the community of it all. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really like that.

Kyle Buller: Talking about community and music, have you been to any of these after parties? I mean, there’s so much happening this time around with. So much great music, it’s hard to really figure out what to do.

Matt Xavier: Yeah, I’ve seen that too. Um, when we first started doing this, we, I got invited in to [00:03:00] do the, to play at the Sheldon 100, and then I, um, brought in my good friend Unal to assist and, and headline. And so, um, me and her, we kind of handled the, the sanctuary. And, um, that was a fantastic gathering. The speakers were amazing.

Leonard Picard gave a beautiful speech. There was a standing ovation. Um, and then we played ambient music at the beginning. We came back later and played dance music. Ended up downstairs in the gallery with, um, David Starfire was down there. Oh, cool. So that was really awesome. But again, at the same time, there’s so many other events.

We almost went out last night to a psychedelic playhouse. Um, then there was, uh, Paul Austin’s thing. But we were so exhausted, we just ended up at the state capitol and watched the kids blow up fireworks. So, you know, um, tonight though, we’re going over to Meow Wolf. We’re supporting Unal over there. Cool.

And then we’re throwing our own rave tomorrow night. It’s an ambient techno. Oh, cool. Rave that starts at 11:00 PM and goes till 6:00 AM. It’s at a warehouse in [00:04:00] Denver. Cool. And it’s an underground excursion. Oh wow. And we’re going super deep. Yeah. We’re gonna take it into the Ambien, chill out realms, but also bring in some classic rave techno.

And it’s gonna be a really deep exploration with just, uh, me, her and, uh, Dennis Snakes is opening. So Cool. Cool. Yeah. It’s gonna be cool. There’s a lot going on. There’s a

Kyle Buller: lot going on. Yeah. Which is amazing. And so for those that are listening and you’re like. I wish I was there. Yeah, definitely. Come in the future.

’cause psychic science is, it’s such an experience. Yeah. It feels like a trip in itself. Yeah. Like, what do I do? Where do I go? Yeah. That’s

Matt Xavier: what my wife is like, she’s saying the same thing. She’s like, boy, I didn’t know this was it. And I went home and my ankles were hurting from the distances in the convention center are crazy.

I mean, just to walk them and, and, and try to get around. It’s been, uh, it’s, it’s been humbling for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. But it’s, it’s worth coming. I mean, to be around the, well, the community

Kyle Buller: too, and just meeting everybody. I mean, that’s. I feel where a lot of the magic is. Yeah. You know, just like this, being able to sit down and just chat with you face to face versus being on Zoom, right?

Yeah. It’s like everybody is just here.

Matt Xavier: [00:05:00] Completely. The magic too. We were in the elevator last night at the hotel and as we’re in the elevator, this guy who didn’t look like he even was at the conference, and then he’s like, what are you guys here for? And then he’s telling us all about this integration technology that he created.

He says, come up to my room. So we’re end up in his room and he is showing us all this amazing technology created for integration. That’s wild. And that was out of nowhere. And so that’s the kind of magic, you know, we bumped into Merrill Ward, who I haven’t seen in years. Oh cool. And I was talking, having conversation with him, but I didn’t recognize him.

And so there’s all these weird little magical moments that are happening.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, yeah. It’s really beautiful. So let’s dig into you. Okay, cool. So, you know, you started talking about this rave. I know you have a background in being a dj, but you’re also a therapist, so can you Yeah. Give us who you are. Yeah.

Who was Matt?

Matt Xavier: Yeah, perfect. Excuse me. So, yeah, it started back in the early nineties and I was introduced to the rave culture in New York City. Um, I’m from Long Island and so that was kind of a mix between Long Island and the New York scene. Went in there and just was birthed [00:06:00] into the culture and, uh, at club NASA in downtown New York.

And once I stepped in there, I knew I was completely hooked and I was gonna do events and dj I started DJing. About a year or so after. And then, um, I started throwing events and, and bringing over a unique style of music called Psychedelic Trance. At the time it was called Goa Trance. And I had a DJ name called Matthew Magic and a company called Tsunami Productions.

And we were throwing all these black light raves with psychedelic trance music. And it was a crazy time. It was lawless and there was tons of debauchery and amazing experiences. Um, I eventually like hit a bottom with. That at the, let’s say around 2000 and finally exited that and, um, took a 15 year break and got away from psychedelics, um, dove into spiritual practices, um, eventually opened a, a record label when I moved to Los Angeles.

Um, ran that. And then, um, the record label and the, the DJing scene got really exhausting. So then, um, I felt the, the drive to go in and start to get trained in, in therapy and counseling. [00:07:00] So I sought out a, a, uh, certification in, uh, addiction counseling. Um, met my mentor, Alan Berger, started getting trained in geal therapy.

And then worked for 10 years in the addiction industry throughout the whole kind of Oxycontin, heroin epidemic. Mm-hmm. And we were losing a lot of clients. There was a lot of problems in the, um, addiction industry at the time. And that burned me out. And once that happened, um, I started looking around. My friend was working in the harm reduction community.

Uh, she was on some of the MDMA trials and I went over and hung out with her, told her about everything that was going on. She sent me to, um, the, uh, what is it, psychedelia integration? Yeah. And, uh, Cherie was running a group and I went down and hung out there. And I had run by that point. So many groups. I was, you know, group director at a program.

So I walked in and I was at home and, um, she just brought me in and that whole community did, and I immediately knew that that was where I was gonna be. So I just, um, [00:08:00] started, you know, creating a psychedelic integration practice. I got trained in psychedelic therapy. And then, um, at that point started sitting for clients and that’s where I started developing the protocol that I have now.

Mm-hmm. Um, using psilocybin primarily and then mixing music with that. And while I was doing that, my wife just came out and she said, I know you thought you quit DJing. But you are DJing for an audience of one. Yeah. And um, and that was a, that was something I wasn’t really noticing because I was so just busy on doing something new.

And, um, that’s where my colleagues started, you know, coming over. I’d talk about my work and they said, you should probably write this down. Mm. But I’m not an academic. I’ve never really written anything anywhere near as extensive as this, and so that seemed a bit daunting. So I just started with notes and um, I would be out on those hikes and do talk to text into the phone.

Collected that over years and in 2022, sat down in the winter. And just plowed away and got about [00:09:00] 40,000 words down. Took a year break, came back, saw what I had, and then worked from February, 2024 to April, 2024 and got the book finished, or at least the first draft. Yeah. Met Doug Real, who is, um, working for Synergetic at the time.

And then Doug picked up my project and brought on our team, uh, Noelle Armstrong, uh, Allison Fellas, uh, Don, uh, McLoan to do production. And that whole team, my sister, um, helped edit the first draft. So that was my whole creation team. So the book is my work, but it is the work of our team, our team through so much energy and effort at it and counseled me through this process because it is life changing.

To write a book. I had no clue that it is such a powerful process. I just thought it was difficult. Yeah. I didn’t know it would be a spiritual endeavor that would change me in the ways that it has. And so, um, coming to the conference has kind of refreshed me because I was feeling really burned out and my PhD clients have told me.

When you write a [00:10:00] PhD, you’re probably not gonna wanna ever read it again. And I didn’t know what that meant. And that’s how this has been where everyone’s like, you must be excited.

Kyle Buller: Have you opened it?

Matt Xavier: I have opened it and I’ve read it and I’m often like, who wrote that? You know, it’s like it’s changed so much and I’m.

Had to psychologically pull away from it. But, um, now that I’ve been building up to the conference and then I’m rereading it again and I’m doing interviews, there’s a new excitement and, uh, this thing has been birthed to life. It’s, it’s a baby for sure. And I now understand what authors go through and why it changes ’em, you know?

Kyle Buller: Yeah. ’cause it’s like, you know, once you’re done, you’re thinking it’s probably already changed. Yeah, exactly. You know? Exactly. And it’s like, then you probably, you can’t go back ’cause it is like the editing process has already started. Absolutely. And then, um. Yeah, it, it’s a process to write something and put it out there to the world.

It, so congratulations, you know, just skimming through it. It looked like you really have thought that out.

Matt Xavier: Yeah, I really did. And it’s a vulnerable endeavor and I tried to use it as, um, you know, I studied the work of Brene Brown for a while, and so thank God I did because. [00:11:00] That vulnerability piece that she pushes really helps, um, enlighten all the underlying shame that says I can’t do it.

And instead, um, by doing this, it’s, you know, a way for me to send that message to myself that I can get out there and allow my message to get to the world. And, um, you know, there’s a lot of questioning that goes on. Am I good enough to do this? Do I have a right to put this out there? Right? And, um, that challenges all of that.

But, um, I’ve stuck with it and I’ve had a lot of support from friends and family, so it’s been a. Incredible endeavor, and

Kyle Buller: it’s an important topic, you know? Yeah. Music is so crucial to the psychedelic experience. Oh my gosh. And you know, there’s not a lot of great resources out there around like, what type of music do I select?

Mm-hmm. How do I create a playlist? Like what is the theory around putting stuff together? Yeah. So I would love to, you know, not giving too much of the book away, but kind of, I don’t mind the

Matt Xavier: whole book is about giving it away. Yeah. So, so that’s the, let’s, let’s dig into

Kyle Buller: it. Like how do you approach, uh, music when it comes to psychedelics?

Matt Xavier: Wow. Um, so the best way that I’ve been kind of [00:12:00] explaining it to everybody is music is medicine. Mm-hmm. And I know that others have said that before, and I give credit to them because it’s so true. You know, music has such a strong impact on us. Most of the time. Psychedelics is something we do every once in a while.

Um, music is a, um, is a medicine that we’re constantly using. You know, uh, tonight you may choose something before you go out that really fits the mood to get you ready to go out there into the world. Or you may have a tough experience and need to come back, um, and, and really relax. So you’re gonna select something that’s gonna be medicinal for you.

So I think understanding that music is medicine and consuming your music as medicine and understanding its qualities and traits, and then consuming the medicines that you’re working with and understanding those qualities and traits, and then being able to align those two while also bringing in the client needs presentation and then aligning all of that understanding.

To provide the best soundtrack, to be supportive, to be the co [00:13:00] co-therapist. Mm-hmm. But to also bring to the surface the material that the client would like to express, but they’re, you know, having difficulty doing. And the music is just such a powerful component because, you know, it amplifies psychedelics as you may be aware of.

And the psychedelics amplify the music. And so they both go hand in hand. So I think we do need to really hold music in high regard for its impact that it can have on a psychedelic experience and not just take it for granted as a secondary Yeah. But instead really put it forward and just, um, understand it deeply.

As deeply as we understand psychedelics.

Kyle Buller: How do you dug into any of the music and psychedelic theory, like kind of. I always, my dyslexia always switches up his, his names. Yeah. Uh, Kendall? No, Mendel. Oh, Mendel. Yeah, I know stuff. I always say Kendall Malin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly right.

Matt Xavier: Yeah, I know Mendel stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. His, um, his work with, um, what is it again? Wave Paths. Yeah. His work, work with Wave Paths was always really impressive. You know, it’s, um. It’s academic science, uh, applied to [00:14:00] music and, uh, psychedelic therapy, and I’ve always been impressed by it. It’s a, it’s an amazing technology that he’s created.

Um, I don’t particularly use it. I, I find that, um, music is really difficult to, I ran a record label if I could pay somebody to create music, you know, um, the beautiful music that’s made by accident. I would, um, you know, it’d be, you know, awarded something for that. And so I think that that’s the, the reason why I don’t, um, particularly use that.

However, I do see its benefit. Mm-hmm. And, um, I have, uh, tested it out and I think that it’s a, it’s a solid product and it definitely has a future. And I know he’s working hard at that. And, um. Yeah. So yeah, I, I support what he’s up to in, in certain ways.

Kyle Buller: I used it in the early years for my ketamine practice, and I really appreciated just, yeah, having that tool available.

Matt Xavier: Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Um, and maybe this actually probably gets into the question of like. You know, music and the different medicines. Mm-hmm. At that time, I think they only had ketamine as an option. Yeah. When I [00:15:00] started to stop using it, like when I started closing my practice down and focus more on vital, yeah. I think they introduced psilocybin and breathwork as medicine.

Mm-hmm. Um, that you could select there. But something that I noticed and coming from the breathwork world mm-hmm. You know, we use a lot of like really rhythmic driving dynamic music. I felt like there was too much space in that, and that might’ve been actually great for ketamine. Like maybe we needed those tones.

But it just felt like the dynamic aspects of music just weren’t completely there. But it was really awesome just to not have to sit there constantly thinking about creating a playlist and you could change the mood. So like if you did want to respond a little bit differently, you had that option to To do that.

Matt Xavier: Yeah. It has that adaptation, which what he’s doing is what I call psychedelic soundtracking. Mm-hmm. So his program does live adaptation based on the, what the client experiences. I think that, um, the psychedelic guide and the psychedelic dj, which is what this is written about, is the tuning fork. Mm. And so, you know, I think it’s, [00:16:00] um, I, I prefer for that to, uh, to be the case where the guide understands that they’re a tuning fork and that they are.

Um, aware during the session they’re paying attention to how they feel and how the client feels and that they can adjust and make that happen in time. And then So you’re doing

Kyle Buller: real time mixing?

Matt Xavier: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it keeps me engaged in the session as well. I mean, not to put it down, but I mean certain, you know, I was told at the very beginning, listen, you might be bored in some of these sessions.

Mm-hmm. There might be clients that might lay there for hours and do nothing. What are you gonna do with your time? And I’ve learned sitting techniques, um, to stay grounded and to meditate along with the client in those cases. But, uh, by being able to attune and stay attuned to the music because of the impact it’s having, I’m even more involved with the session.

So I’m even, you know, staying right in the pocket with the client, adjusting the volume, which has such a significant impact on the setting. And then being able to make decisions in real time. I have multiple options available on screen, and so I’m [00:17:00] able to switch at different points. I use a four turntable system.

Cool. And so I’m able to just make a last second decision based on how I feel on what I’m seeing happening in the moment.

Kyle Buller: So you’re actually using like a dj?

Matt Xavier: Yeah, I’m using the Allen and Heath zone. K two to control tractor native instruments. Tractor four. And so that gives me a four deck option so that then I can play musical chess while I am connected to the client.

I have one ear on what’s going on in the headphones. Yeah. And then I have my other ear paying attention on what the client is actually doing. And then from that I’m able to make those, um, last second decisions to then either continue the session, you know, or the experience that’s going on, or to then change that theme and that soundtrack at that time.

Yeah,

Kyle Buller: that’s powerful. And that definitely takes a skill. ’cause I think you really need to understand music and you have to understand all the tracks that you’re playing. Yes. But I remember during some of the breathwork sessions that I was part of, um, my teacher does a lot of live mixing. Yeah. And sometimes I would take my eye shade up and he is sitting up there and somebody actually like created a [00:18:00] t-shirt for him saying, Gerrick dj, but I like take my eye shades.

And he’s sitting in front of like everything and. I’m like, he’s controlling the spaceship. Yeah. You know, like he is kind of like influencing that with the music. Yeah. And just like how powerful that is. But that does take a, a skill.

Matt Xavier: It is a skill. And I do write about this in the book multiple times. Um, do not try to do what I’m doing.

And I think that that needs, even though I put it in a book, um, I try to tell people to take what you want, leave the rest. Um, don’t be overwhelmed by what you read. Uh, I try to break it down as simply as possible. But it takes time to do the live adaptation. Mm-hmm. I think it first starts with understanding the therapeutic qualities of the music.

Mm-hmm. Of the medicine. Um, definitely getting trained in some form of, um, counseling modality. That is an absolute must for anybody who steps into any type of psychedelic work. Um, even if it’s just shamanic work. Mm-hmm. Understand that. And then even if you’re working with Western folks, is learn a Western [00:19:00] modality.

Um, get that stuff down, get your playlist. Down, do that therapeutic music curation, take that, uh, screening plan, the screening form or the treatment plan, see what the client needs are, develop the list or the record box as best as you can. Just like DJs do, before we go out to clubs, we throw options in the box.

We think we know what’s gonna go on, right? But be open for those changes. And then when you get in the moment, even if you slowly start to do some live adaptation, you do that psychedelic soundtracking even a little bit. Every once in a while, you just change that one track. If you’re using Spotify, you just move that one track up because you look and you go, oh, that track’s gonna be a little too strong.

And so maybe you move that down, move that up. Now you’ve altered the session and you’re doing that by sharing that, um, collective consciousness with the client. The client is contributing whether you can fully sense that or not. And so when you’re able to make though even slight changes. Um, you’re really allowing the client to, um, be involved in that experience.[00:20:00]

As for the DJing component, there is a whole technical part of this where I make recommendations for programs for speakers, Bluetooth systems, things like that. Um, people get really

Kyle Buller: caught up on that stuff. They do. You know, it is pretty tough, but I have

Matt Xavier: simple, I, I’ve really dumbed it down to novice level, intermediate advanced, so that people can really step into this and start to at least experiment with sound in the room in a different way.

Yeah.

Kyle Buller: When you were DJing, like would you go in with like a framework or would you really listen to the crowd?

Matt Xavier: Mm-hmm. Um,

Kyle Buller: and like yeah. How does that convert to like your psychedelic work?

Matt Xavier: I think it’s a mix. Mix, yeah. Yeah. I think that it’s, um, preparing in a sense by understanding the music that I’m doing.

Mm-hmm. Knowing what the venue is, the crowd is, and what the recommendations are for that. But then leaving myself like I do withal therapy is like we don’t show up with an agenda. Yeah, right. You know how that works. If you show up at that agenda, this is what I’m gonna do. I just read this in the book, you know, and then you sit down and then the client’s going in this direction and you’re trying to [00:21:00] pull them that way, which doesn’t meet them where they’re at.

And so I think music’s the same way, and that’s even with the dance floor, you know? I get it together. My wife and I always laugh. She’s like, well, you know, I’m working on my tracks for the set, and then I get there and I don’t even play most of it. Yeah, yeah, right. I ended up playing exactly what was needed and I felt was needed in the moment, and that is exactly how the sessions work for me.

But that might be different for a novice level. So I think it’s better to sit down, create those arcs and I, I speak about the stages in the book. Mm-hmm. Understand how the stages feel and look and then match the tracks to it. And once you have that laid out, sit through your own protocol. Mm-hmm. Um, whether you alter your consciousness or not, uh, you know, I’ll take like one hit of cannabis, sit down, sit through it, and go.

Oh, that all worked except that one track. Yeah. Right. And so now I know I can take that out, put something in. Once I sit through that, then I know what I’m about to administer and then sit down and do that. And leave yourself open for options if you’re, you know, feeling confident enough in the time to make them.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. I want [00:22:00] to really kind of break down some of this stuff. Yeah. But I first want to ask, ’cause you kept bringing it up, like the therapeutic qualities of the music and the medicine. Mm-hmm. Um, and. What are the therapeutic qualities of the music of medicine, say for ketamine versus psilocybin? Right. And like, how are you thinking about that?

Matt Xavier: Yeah, emotional resonance is a huge one. Um, knowing what each track, uh, makes you feel is really important because that’s going to resonate if even 50% for how the client’s likely feeling from that piece of music. Um, that’s really important. I, I listen out for timber, which is like the stretchiness of the song, um, elasticity.

Um, the spatial qualities, I like visuals. I’m very synesthetic, so when I listen to music, either sober or on a substance, I see things inside my mind. I hear things, I think of things. I feel things. And so I explore all that and I, and I get that down. My wife and I will talk about that and I’ll say, this is making me think of this memory from childhood.

And so I’ll remember that [00:23:00] it triggered that in me, and she’ll say, that’s interesting. That does that for me. Where I’m like, well, what emotion is. That, that’s causing that. And so I tend to notice, um, for pro audio protocol, one that comes with the book, I lean heavily with, um, sublimation and I’m using a lot of major corded material because, um, that’s kind of a sad but beautiful experience.

It eases clients into their subc. Um, provides them with the support to be able to release and understanding what that feels like for ourselves gives us the empathy to have with the clients. So,

Kyle Buller: yeah. And like, would you use different music for ketamine versus psilocybin? Oh yeah. Or are you using

Matt Xavier: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Um, you know, I recently worked with a client who did an MDMA journey and wanted to do psilocybin, then opted out. And while I was working with that client, I realized for MDMA that um. I always find music to be very front and center for MDMA, but um, not as front and center as it is for psilocybin mushrooms.

And [00:24:00] so that was interesting to see that MDMA for that client was, um, very, the music was very secondary and I was, um, reminded about that. It’s not the case for everybody, but, um, I would definitely make different decisions for working with MDMA. There’s um, hard opening pieces. There’s a certain vibe that comes with music, um, an energetic level because it’s an amphetamine, and so I would make, uh, decisions that align more with that.

With psilocybin, I’m so aware of the. The stages that onset and what I call the hike Yeah. Is so mellow and chill as it’s coming on. So I’d like to ease them in with particular pieces of music that are more expansive and soft. Mm-hmm. And then at that hour mark, when we stop for the bathroom break, um, you know, check in for a booster.

If the client chooses a booster, they take that. And then at that point. Um, the medicine is continuing to increase, so you wanna match that. Mm-hmm. And then once you go up for 90 minutes, you reach that top and that’s the summit. When you reach that summit, there’s an [00:25:00] expansiveness, that total peak energy.

And so again, we pull the energy back, use more of an expansive kind of, uh, music for imagination. And then as that breaks in, the strength comes down, we go into that de the descent stage, and that’s more of a homecoming. So there is a. A nostalgic kind of, um, sublimation that matches really nicely after they’ve been through that ascension and that peak work that, um, goes with that for.

Ketamine, you know, I haven’t really been working with that in such a long time. I had a big history with Ketamine a long time ago, so I’ve definitely, um, stayed away from it. Yeah. But, um, you know, it’s a, it’s an anesthetic, but it’s a fascinating one. And, um, I’m still checking in with a lot of you guys about what, uh, what the stages are like.

It’s so short acting. Yeah. So for me, I’m thinking like 45 minutes. Wow. That’s not a lot of time. Um, my regular DJ gigs are 90 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. So when, you know, a 30 minute or 45 minute, anything doesn’t give, you know, any time to develop it. However, ketamine moves very [00:26:00] fast. So I’m fascinated to learn from you guys about that.

I think that’s where

Kyle Buller: like the wave paths is nice because it does, I don’t know when I was doing it and also offering it to clients, it’s like. It was just that spaciousness and it felt like you could deepen it with like the certain tones and like kind of go in without like necessarily needing this kind of arc that you’re talking about.

Oh, interesting. And it felt like, you know. The, the 10 to 12 minutes, you know, they have ketamine in their mouth. It’s waiting to come on. Maybe I’m doing a meditation, I’m guiding them through something. Okay, great. Or doing some drumming and then laying down, and then that stuff would open up and you could select different themes.

Mm-hmm. Like, I forget what all themes were. It’s been a while since I used the software, but, um, and so I, I would select that theme and so it would have different tones. Mm-hmm. It was nice. It felt a little bit more spacious, and you’re right, because it is like a little bit shorter. Sure. Um, that, yeah. Maybe it’s like interesting to think about how would that go, but mm-hmm.

Um, yeah, I didn’t, you know, it’s interesting I didn’t play [00:27:00] much with, um, like actual curated playlists. I usually just. Used that one. Yeah. Um, and I seem to really enjoy it.

Matt Xavier: Right.

Kyle Buller: Um,

Matt Xavier: I mean, if it works, it works. It works. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Once you figure out a medicine protocol that works, you don’t need to really mess with it too much.

It does. Its magic. Yeah. Yeah. Same with the music. Once you figure out something that works for you and your practice and for the tribe that’s seeking you out and entrusting you with the most profound experience of their life, if you know that that’s what works for you, that’s great, but as long as you leave yourself open for changes.

Then you’re really involving the client as well, and you’re not just doing a cookie cutter for everything.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yep. So how are you breaking up, uh, music? So, I, I hear you, you’re talking about this analogy of a hike. Mm-hmm. The summit, the descent. And so when you’re listening to music mm-hmm. And I think this is practical and this is what we also tell, like, listen to as much music as possible.

Matt Xavier: As much as you, as much, I imagine

Kyle Buller: that you’re probably breaking things up into different categories. Listening to it. And so how are you breaking up music when you’re listening to it so you can [00:28:00] start to categorize it and figure out where it goes?

Matt Xavier: That’s a great one. Um, so this, for this particular work, I do think understanding the stages of whatever medicine you’re using.

Sit through it if you can. You know, I know it’s, there are some researchers that have never even tried psychedelics and that’s fine. You know, they’re working with it in a different way. But I do think practitioners benefit from trying the medicine first. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I notice clients also feel a sense of trust if they, you know, practitioner has sat through it in some capacity.

So I do recommend at least trying something once. Feeling what those stages are like and then, um, taking that understanding, coming back to the music, and then sitting down like my wife and I do as I’m driving along and I’ll say, where does this go?

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Matt Xavier: And she’ll go, oh, um. This is like an ascension track, you know, the, the ascent stage or what we call the climb.

You know, she’s like, it, it sounds like climbing. And I’m like, great. So we’ll know, you know, I have a playlist, um, in there. I use Bandcamp primarily. Cool. Which we can talk [00:29:00] about why, but then I’ll, you know, put stuff in there and, um, and so I’ll have it sectioned off into the stages. Um, I also section things off based on emotion, energy levels, uh, flavor, you know, I have a, a trippy folder for instance, which is full of great stuff.

You know, and so I, you know, I’ll drag things in there so that I can grab them more quickly. Um, and yeah, that’s, that’s how I do it for psychedelic therapy is primarily lay out the stages.

Kyle Buller: Cool.

Matt Xavier: Um, but yeah, in general, what are your

Kyle Buller: stages like, uh, for those that might not know what we’re talking about?

Mm-hmm. Like I feel like I know what you’re talking about. Yeah. But like, people are like, what stages are you talking about? Okay. Yeah.

Matt Xavier: That’s good. Um, yeah, for the stages, well, there, I’m gonna just focus on the four primary stages. Mm-hmm. And so that’s from when you consume the medicine. Uh, from that point, you’ve got basically about an hour, which is the onset.

That means the medicine’s coming on slowly. It’s a first effects. It’s a gentle time. It’s a meditative time. I do at least a 10 or 15 minute, um, [00:30:00] meditation, you know, bowls, bowl music, things like that, just to ease them in, get them out of their head, get them into their body, and then ease them into that experience and get to that hour mark where we take a little bit of a pause.

And kind of, um, take a break for, you know, bathroom and things. And then the second stage from that, after they consume a booster or not, the medicine begins to increase in strength. And so at that point you’re looking at a 90 minute ascent for mushrooms all the way up to the top. So I call it the climb or also the ascension, right?

So you get up to the top and then that’s the summit or the peak. And that for me, I’ve learned is about a 30 minute. Experience could be 30, 45 minutes where they’re up at the very top of the mountain, the vista, they’re enjoying the views and so, you know, again. Thinking about what kind of music would you wanna listen to if you were at the top of a mountain after you just climbed for hours, right?

And then as you’re coming down, you’re gonna want some energy to return, but you’re gonna want something that’s like, that was a really incredible hike. Now we’re bringing things home for a closure. So again, it’s the, [00:31:00] uh, it’s the hike or the onset. It’s the, as the, um, the climb or the ascend. There is the summit or the peak, and then there’s the dissension or the return.

That’s how I kind of describe them in the book.

Kyle Buller: Cool, cool. Nice. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Xavier: And again, that’s strength for the medicine. Yeah. How it works. And then just pairing that with particular pieces of, and you said

Kyle Buller: you also kind of categorize it from emotional tone too. Yeah. Yeah. So do you have multiple lists there?

Do you have it like the hike, the summit? Yeah. And then you have like think section offer

Matt Xavier: emotional. Yeah. And I just know it. Yeah. Right. That’s the other thing that you just said is like, you have to consume this. This is the part that I really do speak about in this, and I hope people take this. Take this away from the book is, um, love music so much.

Yeah. You have to want to be listening to it all the time. And you know it, that’s, I have to stop listening to music to give my ears a break. And so, you know, I, I genuinely have to slow down and, um, you have to fall in love with music and, and play it everywhere you [00:32:00] can and understand it. And then break it off into its section so you can understand how to use it.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. ’cause you’re mentioning this. Quote that Pierre Bouchard. Do you know Pierre?

Matt Xavier: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He’s a wonderful human. Yeah, he is. He’s in, in Denver. He’s Boulder. Boulder, yeah.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. He learned this from a mentor. I’m gonna butcher it. It’s somewhere on our website, uh, an article that he wrote. But it’s like, you know, does the music feel beautiful when you listen to it or do you feel beautiful in the presence of the music?

Oh, um, and Nice. I try to like embody that when I listen to music. Yeah. I’m like. Yeah. Yes. You know, is that having that type of impact? Yes. Um, and yeah, really encourage everybody, you know, if you’re interested in like putting playlists together and getting started, like just put on Spotify or wherever you listen.

And just listen to a lot of music.

Matt Xavier: Yeah. Listen to a lot of music. And you know, one thing I feel called to do is to tell everybody as well, and I have a chapter on this in the book, is buy your music.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. So band camp.

Matt Xavier: So here’s my thinking is that, um, if we [00:33:00] want music to be around and we don’t want to be listening to AI produced music in the next few years, which they’re already doing on Spotify,

Kyle Buller: we probably don’t even know.

Matt Xavier: Um, and most people don’t. Yeah. That they’re listening to AI produced music so that Spotify can make even more money. And they already give fractions of a fractions of a fraction of a fraction of a penny for per listen to an artist. So you’re talking about thousands of listens to even make a dollar, you know, that is not gonna feed the artist.

That we need to make human music that resonates for humans. And so I think it’s absolutely essential that if you’re using these someone’s music in a psychedelic session to provide the most profound experience for another person’s life, then you should at minimum find that artist. Let them know you’re using their music so they can feel the joy with you.

Mm-hmm. But then give them something. Go to band camp, buy the track, put it in a collection. Even if you’re gonna play it off, Spotify, buy it. Give them the dollar, the dollar 50. If you’re gonna go and use it in a session and charge thousands of [00:34:00] dollars, go and give the money to. To the musician, support them so that we can actually have these musicians around to make this music that we’re using, this medicine that we’re using.

It’s absolutely essential. So I do have a whole section on that and I speak to that. I don’t wanna put down Spotify. I know it’s easy, it’s great

Kyle Buller: for discovery. It’s fantastic for

Matt Xavier: discovery. Absolutely. That’s what I do. I,

Kyle Buller: I discover on Spotify or YouTube, wherever. Yeah, buy it on Bandcamp. But also, you know, I don’t know if you get into the whole thing about like.

Using flack files. Like lossless files? Yes. Versus just streaming on Spotify. I go into that, you know, you’re like streaming, what if it goes out? Mm-hmm. You know, and like I use a program called Mix with two three Xs on it. Yeah, absolutely. I know that. So it’s like I download it. Mm-hmm. Pay and, you know, a lot of like, uh, artists on band camp, sometimes it’s just donation based.

Yes. Right. So it’s like, you know, there’s maybe not a set price for the album. Yeah. Maybe you just donate whatever you can donate. And I, I a hundred percent agree with you if

Matt Xavier: you can’t afford their music. I promise you, if you tell them what’s happening, they’ll say they, that is worth currency. They will [00:35:00] just be, so, I just had a conversation with Meerman from Greece.

He said, Matt, this is what I live for, is to hear you’re using my music in this capacity. I buy all his music anyway, but to he, even more than the money, he knew his music was being used in this way and that was such a beautiful thing for him to say. And then as you’re, you’re talking about that is that Yeah.

Mix is a great program. Um, my wife uses DJ Pro. I use Tractor, so it’s, um, it’s good thing there’s so much out there. There’s so much out there. But, um, I speak to all that. There’s a whole technical portion. I think using wave files is important. A IF files because it creates a fuller experience. Yeah. Um, but you know, when you’re doing streaming, I have a whole portion in there to talk about streaming, how to use the associated DJ mix that comes with this.

Um, there’s a whole manual that’s involved. So the DJ mix, by the way that, um, created, that inspired the book is available on a strangely isolated place, and it’s a four hour DJ mix protocol that I developed over hundreds of sessions, and that brings the clients through the whole experience. Um, there’s a [00:36:00] QR code in the back with a manual on how to use it, how to stream it, how to download it, and um, use it in sessions.

And you can use it as a reference with the book as well. Yeah. And so it’s, uh, got a multiple use to it.

Kyle Buller: Two questions that are popping in my head. Yeah, sure. Um, ’cause the whole thing about like using Spotify versus mix got me thinking, sure, I hate Spotify. Maybe I just haven’t figured it out. You can cross fade.

Mm-hmm. But when you wanna skip a track, you hit next. It doesn’t cross fade. No it doesn’t. And it just goes to the next track. So it got me thinking like. What’s your take on silence in a playlist?

Matt Xavier: Oh, I have a whole section on silence. Nice. Yeah. It’s the silence in between the notes that makes the music.

Yeah. Um, I think that, uh, having tracks be able to fully end sometimes is really great. Mm-hmm. And then in other cases, um, there’s something beautiful about even just having a small 15 second or 32nd transition. Mm-hmm. ’cause it keeps it continuous. And like many clients will say is, I didn’t know when the music started or when it ended.

And I think the transitions in the DJ mixing makes that [00:37:00] possible. Um, there’s some effects throws if you get advanced enough that you can do to kind of create washes and effects, which are really nice. And then another thing that really, really helps. And I wanna stress this for people is learn harmonic, mixing.

Go to mix in key.com. Um, download some of your tracks and run it through there. Or use their new app, which listens to what you’re listening to on your computer.

Kyle Buller: And that just describes what key it’s in, what key it’s

Matt Xavier: in. And then you can organize your tracks by key and then you can actually sustain emotional experiences.

You can create beautiful mixes based on the keys, the root keys, the thirds, the fifths. And by doing that, you keep a beautiful, um, journey. You, you can just help extend an emotional release that’s going on, or you can, um, make a switch and change to something without making it so abrupt, right? And it really helps with musical storytelling.

So it’s a very good thing again. Um, mixed in key.com and then in this, um, it’s in the advanced section of the book. It’s called Harmonic Mixing, and there’s a whole chart you can follow. It’s [00:38:00] very simple. Cool. It takes music theory and it makes it simple for everybody, so, yeah.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah. And what do you think about Word.

And lyrics music? Oh yeah, that’s a good question. Um, there’s debate. I mean, in the breath work world, we, we are always no words. Yeah. ’cause it really pulls people out. So

Matt Xavier: I, I, I do follow in the footsteps of the people who’ve done the research before me. And, um, I do agree with them because when I did stray early on, um, I did have clients who were courageous enough to go there.

There was a vocal that just kind of threw me off. I think it’s like if you’re using a vocal that you just can’t make out what’s being said. And there are so many vocals now where I listen and I don’t even know what. Right. It’s in English. Yeah, but I wouldn’t even know. Or it’s made up or it’s just made up.

It’s gibberish. Um, I think in those cases, as long as they can’t understand it. That’s fine. But, um, primarily create a collection that doesn’t have that. If you’re gonna use something, use it in a language that they won’t understand. But as I was just being interviewed, I was told that he, you know, he was sitting with somebody and, um, they played [00:39:00] Portuguese music.

Mm. And she thought he wasn’t Portuguese, but he understood it and it threw him off because the language was saying something that she didn’t even understand. And so be careful about what you’re using with vocals. Um, if you’re gonna use it, definitely get consent beforehand, um, and use it sparingly. I, but you know, I am open to the very occasional time where.

You know, psychedelic soundtracking that adaptation calls for it. Mm-hmm. And the consent is there. Then at that point you can kind of slip it in. Or if a client asks and you think it’s appropriate and they say, I need this to be played, then you can have some huge releases from a, from a powerful track, even if it has vocals.

Do you

Kyle Buller: allow people to bring their own music or like make suggestions on like what they wanna listen to? Or do you feel like you’re like, I feel like we need to be maybe a little kind of. Objective here and like not have you input your own like story in here. And we’re gonna create a soundtrack where you’re not gonna know, so you don’t have that [00:40:00] memory attached to that song or, perfect.

Matt Xavier: You said it all. Okay, cool. Yeah, that was perfect. Um, the way I simplify it is I say if you’ve sat in an ayahuasca circle, do they come up to you and ask you what music you want to hear?

Kyle Buller: Mm,

Matt Xavier: they do not. At least the ones I’ve been to, they’re not walking around the room going, well, what do you want to hear?

What do you want to hear? If I walk up and say, can you play this track? You know, that would not happen. Um, it’s about trusting that they know their music, like they know their medicine. And stepping back and surrendering is all part of this process. And you know, if you’re experiencing a piece of music that’s challenging, then it’s likely triggering something that needs to be worked on.

So I think it is better to just sit back, enjoy the ride, and trust that your guide has done the work to understand the music that they’re going to administer during the session. Um, so yeah, I think that it’s good to be open though to the client’s, um, you know, needs for that. I’ve worked with a lot of big musicians, pianists who are like.

You know, I’d prefer for a couple [00:41:00] piano pieces. You know, can you play this? I’ve had people give me notes from tracks that are really powerful, so I have to figure out where they fit in. Mm-hmm. And I’ve done those things. I’ve had people submit playlists from Spotify. I go through them, pluck a couple of tracks out that can work.

But primarily I like to try to just pre present something that they haven’t felt before, experienced before. Because that triggers different avenues in the brain. Mm-hmm.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Um. Maybe a, a little bit more of a technical question. Sure. Um, with each track, is there a time limit that you don’t want to go beyond?

Mm. So like, you know, not selecting a track that’s like 10 minutes long.

Matt Xavier: That’s a great question because I was just talking to Trisha, Tricia, Eastman, Eastman. I just met her right before I came over here. Oh, yes. And Tricia, um, Tricia was talking about, um, she said, yeah, you, you can’t. She was talking to, uh, to I think Joseph or something, and she had said, uh, uh, what did she say?

She said, you [00:42:00] can’t just play three minute tracks, you know? Yeah. And it’s so funny you bring that up, that that just happened because it’s actually for me too short of tracks. Right. Or are the issue. Yeah. Um, because it, it’s changing the theme too quickly. Mm-hmm. Now you can do that if you’re doing harmonic mixing because you’re continuing the keys.

And so you can extend a two minute track multiple times, but um, I prefer things to be longer form and it’s good to keep long form tracks in your collection. Yeah. And so I have a bunch of stuff from Pearl Eternal, that’s another project of him. And um, his stuff is 30 minute pieces. Oh wow. Yeah. And he’ll

Kyle Buller: use that in some of your sessions.

Matt Xavier: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. The best part for the summit phase, which is about two and a half hours in the best ones, are those long form tracks. 30 minute tracks such Makes sense. Such just play. Yeah. And um, give space. They don’t have as much movement, they have more expansiveness. And so I think using tracks like that,

Kyle Buller: yeah.

Just remember having like some of those longer tracks in places and be like. [00:43:00] How long did that go on for? Yeah, like it felt like an eternity. Like can you change it? You know? It’s like,

Matt Xavier: yeah, I

Kyle Buller: know. Sometimes it could be maddening for some folks, but Yeah,

Matt Xavier: but that’s why if you’re using a 30 minute piece, understand it, make sure it doesn’t have a ton of changes because a lot of those tracks, you know, could like classical music over 30 minutes changes Multiple times.

Multiple times, yeah. But with long form, something that’s

Kyle Buller: like repetitive.

Matt Xavier: Exactly. Long form a. Especially things like Pearl. Look up Pearl, look up Eternal. His other project, he’s got, um, some amazing, uh, Ludwick. Simis is his name, and he’s got so many long form tracks that are really psychedelic, have beautiful emotionality and play long form.

And those are really good. So that if a client is feeling, um. You know, really overwhelmed. If you really need to drop what you’re doing and tend to an experience, move to a long form track, let that carry the session. And I have a bunch of those tracks that really help ease things. So if a client’s in a strong ego death and they’re, um, then they’re needing a lot of attention and support, then I’ll just [00:44:00] switch to long form.

Mm-hmm. And then just, uh, give full support and attention to the client until they’re stabilized in that, and then move back over to doing that psychedelic soundtracking again. As you’re going. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Thinking about like emotional tone, how the client’s responding. Music, somebody’s having a really difficult time, they’re in the middle of their peak.

Do you take a music track that’s a little bit softer to play that. Or do you kind of take this theory of like, they’re in this and let’s amplify it a little bit

Matt Xavier: more? Yeah. Wow. Um, my gosh. To do what? The second part of that is you need to know your client.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Matt Xavier: You 100% need to have a very strong rapport with your client to be able to push that boundary.

I know that there’s a celebration in the community. I’m all about safety. Um, I know that we celebrate ego death. The articles do, it makes for good copy. Yeah. Um, but unfortunately it misleads clients to believe that that’s what makes for essential healing. Mm-hmm. And they come in wanting that big experience.

Uh, [00:45:00] so I think if, you know, you let the moment decide. Uh, you can see whether the client can handle it. You know, in Gestalt we trust that the client has the capacity to, um, to handle a lot more than we think they can. So I lean into that trust and I trust the medicine as well. Um, but if a client’s struggling, if they have limited experience, I don’t think pushing them beyond that is going to, um, be advantageous to what they’re doing.

So I’ll switch to something that’s calmer, and again, that’s the importance of being able to attune and be involved. Yeah. Is to not push clients beyond their limit, but instead to, um, support them in the experience. ’cause there’ll be future journeys where you can push those boundaries a little further.

Right?

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I’m seeing that we’re probably getting at time here. Sure. And I could just keep going. Yeah, sure. Whatever you need. I love this. Just love this topic. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe more personal question here. Mm-hmm. Who are some of your favorite artists? Like, what do you like to listen to? Wow.

Matt Xavier: Okay.

So first to touch on that, um. The traditional book and index will tell you about all topics in the book. I didn’t do that. [00:46:00] This book index has all the artists that are featured within the paragraphs, all the recommendations, the ones that wound up on the protocols, that’s all in the pages. So, um, right off the bat, I will say that I use a lot of music from Awakened Souls, which is, um, Cynthia and James.

Bernard, they make fantastic music that is, um, so beautifully produced. Um, I love inquiry. Uh, Lacey gave me a wonderful review of the book. I’ve used her music a bunch, um, for Ascent music. I love Helios. Uh, his music is fantastic, synchro. Um, his music’s amazing for, it’s got that energy, that sublimation in it.

Um, Chica, which is an old rave, uh, a rave producer, he makes beautiful expansive tracks, especially his older material. Um, I really enjoy, uh, Joel Mo. Um, he’s from Sweden. He has a project called Dam on, uh, a strangely isolated place, and so that has some really wonderful energy. It’s useful in the ascension.

Um, who else do I use? Of [00:47:00] course, the king. John Hopkins. Mm-hmm. I mean, he is just unbelievable. I have, um, him mentioned in the book multiple times, I use his, uh, track immunity closes all of my first protocols. Every client that, um, I’ve worked with has had that as the final track on the four, the end of the fourth hour.

But all of his other work, he understands, um, the sonic soundscape. He understands, um, psychedelics. His music just translates so well. And then Pearl and, uh, eternal, um, slow Meadows music is great for the come down that final stage. Um, a really great homecoming. And, um, what was the last one? Endless melancholy.

Mm. Um, his music is just fantastic for this work. It just triggers so many emotions. And music for remembering is, is such a beautiful, um, experience to create for clients.

Kyle Buller: I don’t think I’ve heard of most of these people. Yeah. So I’m excited to dig, I’m deep into dig in as well. So I guess that brings up another question.

Like what’s your thought on using like, a lot of these, [00:48:00] like, I don’t know, they might be more popular, but I’m just gonna use the term independent artist. Mm-hmm. Please. Um, versus like say a bigger artist name. Um, and people might recognize, so like, like Brian Eno, Brian Eno, Seeger Ross, Lisa Gerard. Like, some of these folks are like,

Matt Xavier: oh, I, I use Lisa’s work in the book.

I love Lisa. And on, uh, protocol too. Yeah, yeah. From Whale Rider. I used a couple of tracks from, uh, from, from that Fantastic music. What do I think about it? Well, I mean, psychedelics are sizzling. So you gotta pick tracks that Sizzle. Sizzle. Yeah. They have to have a sizzle. Yeah. You know, I don’t like things that are a little bit too sigh, muy, and stripped down.

Yeah. You know, it has to have it, it has to have that thing. And I know it’s subjective and everybody thinks what that is is different. Yeah. But um, that’s why I think it’s good to try out with medicine and ask yourself, is this triggering the emotions, the memories, the visuals that I would like. That I think my client would like.

Um, but I think there’s space for it all, you know? Yeah. Music for airports, it works. ’cause it works, right? [00:49:00] Yeah. Um, apex Twins, uh, and, uh, what is it? The am ambient volume, I think. Yeah. Three or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All of those tracks work really well because they work, right? So there’s nothing wrong with using them if they would.

Kyle Buller: I, yeah. And I, I think I, I do it more from like one’s association with that, right? So like. I don’t know. I just, I know I shouldn’t use this track all the time, but I love, like part of Lisa Gerard’s, like some of the stuff in the gladiator. Oh yeah, yeah. And like that works really well for breath work for like that homecoming.

Absolutely. And like people are like, man, I really love that gladiator track.

Matt Xavier: Yeah. But you know what I use in, um, in, in protocol two. I use, uh, Han Zimmer’s work from, um, interstellar. And I use it to go all the way down because I use all minor chords on that one. And so I go all the way down and at the very bottom I use that one piece from, from the film where there’s tons of space and then you build and it gets that crescendo at the end and us.

And [00:50:00] then from that point, I use that to then launch back up. Yeah. And um, and so it’s a tool and Hans understands all of that. But he has

Kyle Buller: some really great tracks too. He does.

Matt Xavier: He does. Yeah. And I’ve used, um, a track from The Martian. Yeah. You know, that cinematic flavor and the rise and fall that comes along with that, um, matches the medicine experience and use it, it can be used really well and the ascension stage, you know, things like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I, I don’t think it’s a problem, you know, just, of course I say this as kindly as possible. Try to stay away from the cheese. Yeah. But, um, that’s subjective. You know, I’ve got my techno buddies who are like, eh, you’re using too many major chords. You know, so everybody has, you know, a lot of different, uh, opinions about that.

Kyle Buller: I think that’s what makes music so tricky, right? ’cause it is such a subjective experience.

Matt Xavier: But there’s some things that match. Yeah, yeah. You know, there are keys that primarily when you play it, if I ask you, you’re gonna say, it makes me feel love. Whereas other ones make you feel afraid. Um, but then the variances on that will differ from person to person.

[00:51:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: So I know you just named a lot of artists that I think you use in this stuff. Are there, what, what other type of music do you like to listen to?

Matt Xavier: That’s great. You know, well, you know what changed my life was Pink Floyd. Mm. Um, when I first smoked weed, I got brought to a, uh, I think it was 16 and a half, and I got brought to a.

A, um, a planetarium and I sat down and I looked up and I said, is this music? And my buddy Chris Corto is like, oh my God, this is, this is music. And I said, I couldn’t even believe it. And so I got so deep into classic, um, psychedelic rock before I moved into electronic. And then what do I do to cleanse my palate?

Um. I really love Kings of convenience. Um, their music is, uh, super folky and really nice. Nick Drake, um, just into folk music and stuff. That feels good. Uh, so yeah, I listened to those things from time to time. Um, I grew up around hip hop. I mentioned all that in the book. So of course I love Tropical.

Actually, last night we were listening to Midnight Marauders by Tropical [00:52:00] Quest Oh, sweet. At the state capitol. And then they were blowing off fireworks. And we’re sitting in there and just totally having a blast. And I hadn’t listened to that album in ages, and my wife and I were just having a blast listening to it.

So I, you know, I vary from time to times, but I admit I am totally addicted to, um, electronic ambient, yeah, yeah. Techno exploration. And I’m constantly working with it, so I, I want to consume it as much as I can with breaks in between.

Kyle Buller: Who are some of like your favorite hip hop artists?

Matt Xavier: Oh, for sure. I grew up around like, I’m gonna go way back.

So I was given, uh, mix tapes by Special Ed, EPMD and this was at summer camp or family owned a summer camp up in upstate New York. And, um, some of the inner city kids would just, um, slip me these tapes and I would listen to, uh, very early Beastie Boys Nice. Or things like that. But then, uh, later on I went through the tribe called Quest phase, uh, the de la soul phase.

Um, you know, eventually I think I. You know, slick Rick and all those things are great. Eric B and Raki. So I’m more of a classic oriented, cool hip hop, um, [00:53:00] hip hop lover. But, uh, you know, eventually graduated into psychedelic rock and dove into obvious, obviously, led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix Cream, um, pink Floyd.

Uh. Anything like the doors were, you know, always so big. Beatles were really big in my family, so Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was, I was introduced through those realms, but definitely made me love music as much as I do. Yeah. Yeah. Sweet. Yeah,

Kyle Buller: I am starting to get back into like my early two thousands hip hop fades again.

Yeah, right. I kind of put that, who isn’t? Yeah. And it’s just like, I’m like, oh man, I’ve been listening to this music in so long. But it’s

Matt Xavier: so good. I think everybody’s coming back to it because the current rhythms are really, um, really edgy. Yeah. And they don’t flow as much. And so when we hear those flows, like last night I was completely bugging out listening.

To a tribe called Quest. Yeah. And I was just listening to the inflection of his voice and the rhythms and the musicality of it. And so I really miss that in hip hop and I’m, I’m hoping that that comes back. Um, ’cause it was very psychedelic. Yeah. We, we smoked a little [00:54:00] weed and dropped in and it was just fantastic then.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s such a good time. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Um, any, so I’m sure people listening, they are either probably creating playlists or thinking about creating playlists and introducing music. What’s like somebody’s feeling like really just like stuck and confused. Like, where the hell do I start? How do I get started here?

Besides like, you know, digging into the book and the literature. Oh, sure.

Matt Xavier: Um, yeah, so in here there’s a section called Therapeutic music Collecting. And so what you wanna do is go to, um. Start at Spotify. Make it easy. You know, there are playlists created by a bunch of artists that are in the book. Um, the people that have already kind of skimmed through that and created lists that you can start from, um, start there, go on Bandcamp, you know, and, and actually hunt around and get music because there’s music on there that isn’t mm-hmm.

Elsewhere. And start by just listening to your music and finding your instrumental music and seeing which instru instrumental music you’ve been driven to. And what actually triggers something in you and then start reading up [00:55:00] on, you know, good psychedelic therapy, music. I put a bunch of, um, resources in there about, you know, places you can go, magazines you can read, uh, podcasts, you can listen to, blogs, you can read.

Um, you could just go through those and actually start to skim through and learn about the artists. Sign up for some of their email lists. They’re gonna send you weekly or monthly emails that will kind of curate some of those selections for you. Go through and pull those tracks out that really stick out and then start to separate them away.

But don’t be afraid.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Matt Xavier: Do not be afraid of music. You know, it is, it, its so wonderful. Um, be in love with it. Mm. And, uh, that, that’s where I think it starts is really turning on music and remembering how much you love it and what it triggers in you. And that drive and knowing how powerful it is gonna be for you and your client.

Let that be something that guides you. And it’s so easy.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Matt Xavier: Listening to music, you know, just, if it’s Spotify, throw it on and skim and go, no, wait that, yeah, put that in a playlist. [00:56:00] Start by creating four stages. In there. And then every track you’re listening to and those you do it, and those four stages,

Kyle Buller: like you would categorize ’em as like climb, summit, that’s it.

Matt Xavier: Climb summit, descent de, and then while you’re listening, don’t forget to just. Just go, oh, that’s right. Let me add that there. Yeah. And you will not regret it because later on you’re gonna have 30 tracks in each one of those, and now you can start to pull and create lists. Yeah. So fall in love with it and remember that it’s fun.

It’s not work to listen to music.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe also listen to things that might scare you a bit, very much. Not saying scary music, but you know, I’ve listened new stuff. It’s like music outside my comfort zone. Yes. You know, I’ve listened to like some world music. I’m like, do I really like this? And I listen to it.

I’m like, actually this is gonna work really well. Mm-hmm. You know? And it’s like, yeah, just. You know, push your edge there.

Matt Xavier: Be open for change. Be open. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, that’s what psychedelics help us do, right? Is to kind of break down the boundaries between us and what we think we can do. And so as that happens, then open yourself up to sound and let the sound then break down those boundaries further and open you up to [00:57:00] new possibilities.

And just let that to, you know, continue to expand over time. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Matt, this has been super fun. I feel like we can keep going. Um, where can people find your book and find your work?

Matt Xavier: Sure. So the book is available on Amazon. Um, it’s also available through all stores. Um, you can get it in paperback, hardcover, and, uh, Kindle.

You can find that there. The, um, audio protocol, the first one is available on a strangely isolated place. And so, um, that feature got posted last week with a full interview and everything. Um, that’s also found on SoundCloud, so you can find it at through the isolated mix series. Protocol two is gonna be released on, uh, the Deep Breakfast podcast series, which is on SoundCloud, and that is an ambient electronic exploration.

Cool. And, um, and you’ll find tons of other amazing mixes from incredible producers on there. And so that will be July 17th. Um, that will be available. And then you can go to my website and I have, uh, music recommendations and things on there. And I’m starting to add more resource resources to the new website that we just [00:58:00] launched.

And so, um, yeah, you can just find me through integrated psychedelics.com. I’m also on Instagram and you know, just reach out through those methods. Uh. Yeah, I’m down to help and eventually, by the way, I will create a training program. Sweet. And, you know, um, I’ll get there. But this is soaking up so much attention That’s Yeah.

Yeah. That, uh, everyone’s like, you need do a training program one step at a time. I’m like, oh man.

Kyle Buller: Well, I mean, you have the outline. I do have the whole outline. Just putting the content then together in a way. But

Matt Xavier: for sure, I mean, pick up the book. It’s an easy read. I did not write it, um, to be complex. I wrote it in language that I could understand, and so you, you, you won’t get lost on it, and I think it’s a good starting point.

Um, check out the mix too. The mix will give you an idea of how transitions and mixes sound, what the stages sound like, and use it out on, you know, try it out on your. Or with a client, see how it works. And then you can take, you know, the playlist that’s associated with it and you can start to alter it on your own and make your own mixes

Kyle Buller: and stuff.

Sweet. Amazing. Yeah. Well, thank you again, Matt. Absolutely. It’s been super fun. Really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much. I’ve been really looking

Matt Xavier: forward to, to sitting with you guys. I mean, psychedelics today [00:59:00] has been on the forefront for, for ages and you guys are really amazing. So thank you for doing the work that you do as well.

Thank you, man. Yeah, absolutely man.

Kyle Buller: That was.

Joe Moore: All right. Here we are. Welcome back to Psychedelics. Today I am joined live by Case Newsom, medical Director at Sendo Project Stadium Medical, is that what it’s called? That’s right. And an emergency room physician working in Denver.

Dr Case Newsom: That’s right.

Joe Moore: Uh, we have a visitor try to keep that dog out.

It’s like typical ER

Dr Case Newsom: work, right. Just getting into it. And,

Joe Moore: yeah. So, um, we have a lot to get into today. I’m really excited because, um, you know, I’ve been a fan of Zendo for a long time. I, and I actually got to see you all work at the recent Phish shows in Boulder. I, you know, went to two of the three nights.

I, I missed one of our mutual friends who worked only the, the middle night. But, you know, just, um, excited to chat about that. Excited to chat about this kind of medical protocol you put together that got implemented. So went recently at Zendo, a Burning Man, and, um. Yeah, there’s just so much [00:01:00] else we can talk about.

So I hope this is the first of many.

Dr Case Newsom: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Really excited to be here. Beautiful home. Beautiful warm vibes from you, Joe. I appreciate the opportunity.

Joe Moore: Yeah, I’m really, yeah, thank you. And thanks for driving up for this. I, I always love it when people make that effort. It’s just nicer to be in person.

Dr Case Newsom: I got to hang with the troll for a minute there and wander Breck for a bit. I haven’t been here in a couple years. Gorgeous day for it.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So let’s kind of, um, before, before we were running the tape, can you give us, um, what is Zendo Project?

Dr Case Newsom: Sure. Zendo project is a harm reduction group that utilizes.

Peer support principles. Our main focus is on supporting people through not down. We work at events. We have an education outreach, uh, program as well. The entire focus is on helping individuals feel resourced to sit with individuals that are having psychological distress. And we don’t [00:02:00] have any particular methodologies or practices per se, that you are bringing tools into those encounters, but rather you’re just trying to act as a grounding space for people to be able to process what’s emerging for them, whether it be psychedelic oriented, psychoactives of other sorts, or even just psychological distress.

Um, anybody that seems to be having a challenging time. We’re more than willing to help. Um, we started at Burning Man over a decade ago now and have subsequently come out from Burning Man into other expressions in the, the festival scene. Um, other psychedelic industry expressions. Um, and it’s honestly been this really beautiful growth of.

Those principles now starting to manifest in other groups as well, doing similar things. And now where, when I was joining in, there was this obvious collaborative intention with medical individuals, EMS, emergency medical services, or the healthcare establishment at creating safe [00:03:00] containers with specialization.

And how we’re able to respond to emergencies in large gatherings is kind of where I am mostly utilized, but also working in an education way of helping teach individuals that are in therapy positions in healthcare, or even just in social settings. And having that composure and being able to, as we say in medicine, take your own pulse first and be able to create a safe place for people to be vulnerable.

And hence the name Zendo Project. ’cause the Zendo is based on the methodologies of going into a space sitting. Sitting. Sitting until it hurts and then continue sitting until it no longer hurts anymore.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah, I, uh, I’ve always been kind of, um, itchy around zen practice itself, but I understand, and you get a lot of that with sitting with people like I, you know, um, it’s no secret.

Dobbin spent a lot of time in Hochberg breath work and there’s a lot of [00:04:00] sitting Absolutely. And a lot of not doing. Mm-hmm. Um, which is humbling. Right. But that’s like your presence is the thing often.

Dr Case Newsom: Absolutely. Yeah. I would say that this is, uh, an intention that’s outside of Zen practice or Buddhism in particular.

Um, but that we were gifted a zendo by, uh, Buddhist practitioners at the beginning of the project, and it only felt like it was a perfect, um, space for us to do the work that we are trying to do. But of course, we have gone beyond that structure now at this point where it was literally a physical space at Burn Now.

I mean, we’ve done. Zendo project inside First Aid at Red Rocks now, like it’s literally on a, a gurney in the corner, you know, and we can create that space even in chaos. I mean, we’ve had Zendo project, uh, sanctuary next to stages at festivals where it’s super loud, you know, but even in the midst of all that, you, with your human element as a sitter, you can still [00:05:00] help occasion something profound that’s going to be coming through energetically and the person needing the help.

Um, and you can just do that even in the midst of chaos, as long as you are grounded yourself. Let’s talk a little bit about stadium.

Joe Moore: Absolutely. What is Stadium?

Dr Case Newsom: So Stadium Medical is, in my opinion, the top of the line event medicine, EMS agency. They’re special in that they don’t do a ton of, I guess, I guess I should say, we, we don’t do a ton of festivals per se, but rather we are based in Denver and we cover essentially all significant concerts and sporting events, um, and gatherings in the Denver metro area.

Mm-hmm. And, and beyond a bit. Um, but we cover, say, uh, empower Field, uh, we cover Red Rocks Ball Arena, mission, you name it, Folsom Field, which we hung out at Phish. Um, and so their job is to be a legitimate healthcare. Front facing service at these large gatherings, [00:06:00] but it’s based in venues. Mm-hmm. So they don’t build up spaces and break them down, like say, um, a more festival focused EMS agency.

We have transporting ambulances. We do have a 9 1 1 catchment area. Um, we do inter-facility transports taking a person, a patient from one hospital to another. So it really is a full fledged, uh, agency and they are spectacular already at providing a skillful medical encounter. Mm-hmm. But they, mm-hmm. Also, because this has been their business for like 20 years, they were already getting pretty skillful with what the Zendo project does.

Um. So I was put in touch with them a few years ago when I started helping coordinate physicians, working some of the heavier shows at Red Rocks so that people could be managed right there on site rather than, you know, in having a ambulance transport to an er. You know, we’re now, it’s an even worse condition for those people to be experiencing something be deep and [00:07:00] profound.

And when I was working at Red Rocks a few years ago, it, it just kind of became this clear relationship between me and the stadium folks that I appreciated what they were doing and their wisdom there. They appreciated that I was, um, bringing some bonafides in the psychedelic world and in prior event medicine that I had done.

And so it ended up working out that their medical director at the time, um, who has a great legacy retired and I came on as one of two medical directors for them. Um, I focus on the event medicine side and then a buddy of mine, um, a. The very good Dr. Sam Smith covers the 9 1 1 and IFT and yeah. So it’s been a, um, a career deepening for me to be able to bring my emergency medicine and my, uh, psychoactive medicine knowledge into that context there and stadium is flourishing.

Honestly, I couldn’t be happier to be working with them.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. And, and this kind of thing is not part of normal med school rotations. Right.

Dr Case Newsom: Not quite, I would say that, uh, [00:08:00] there’s a lot of personal learning in medical school. Mm-hmm. Perhaps. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s a very, I, I really love medical school.

Um, many physicians. Where did you go? I went to a school called Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine, and I went to a, uh, a satellite campus in near Sarasota in Florida, which was pretty spectacular. I’m studying on the beach all the time. Um, I was there with my now wife. She was a year ahead of me as well.

And it was a really glorious time. Um, but when you’re reading and studying all this, and, you know, we were talking earlier about systems and you’re getting into the way the body works with itself and how complex it is. Also, how beautiful that this could even emerge from hydrogen atoms from the sun, you know?

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: Um, it’s an opportunity there to really start to work with altered states, um, to really understand in different ways how this really manifests. Um, it’s, it’s just. Brilliant to be able to dig into that. And when you’re in school, you have nothing to do but study, [00:09:00] right? Like that is the main thing.

Mm-hmm. And you’ll never have that kind of freedom or, um, the expectation that you have time to read forever. You know, you get into clinical work and now studying becomes very tertiary to your prime objective, which is seeing patient, patient, patient. Um, so that was a really formative time for me.

Residency as well, when you go on and you do your actual clinical deepening after your basic studies in the classroom. And all of that was, was, I mean, I was starting to get into event care then as well. Um, that was playing music a lot and, um, discovering arts, discovering poetry. Um, I was in Pennsylvania, I was hiking a lot, uh, somehow in residency, finding time for all this.

And, um, yeah, the qualities that have led me to be a good fit with Stadium Medical were emerging at that time. Um, and yeah, honestly, I wish I could have the kind of time to just read again

Joe Moore: and

Dr Case Newsom: as soon as I started getting some time to myself, I had kids, you know? Mm-hmm. And that’s a whole nother personal study

Joe Moore: that takes [00:10:00] a lot of time, it turns out.

Yeah. Can you, before we, um, I kinda want to like rewind the tape a little bit too, but before we do that, um, how, how did you make the decision around like, um, allopathy versus like the do path, like osteopathy kind of path?

Dr Case Newsom: That’s a great, great question. Thanks for asking that. Um, the things that drew me towards osteopathic principles were that it feels a lot more.

Holistic to me. And that’s kind of a trope to say so, but it comes from somewhere that really is the case. You think a lot more about how the musculoskeletal and nervous system then manifest illness when not tended to or maintained properly. And so there’s a bit more of an intentional prevention sensibility with how you encounter the body and how you think about patients and the situations they’re in.

And one step beyond that is once you understand how you can engage a person’s better health, they can get towards good health by how they [00:11:00] move, how they live, how they exercise, how they eat, how they breathe, all that, um, you can start to empower patients to their own good health rather than just supplying a corrective, um, like a pharmaceutical or something, which.

I mean, love pharmaceuticals, they have their role. We have some technological whizzbang imagery, you know, in medicine that’s really great. But being able to quickly show a patient, um, where they’re holding tension, where their posture is not necessarily in their favor, you can actually coach them on a two or three minutes exercise or some sort of movement or breathing technique that then they can take for free with.

Mm-hmm. As long as they just have the intention and are willing to do it. And it’s also helped me in my own health, right? I mean, I’m nearing 40 things are starting to hurt, starting to have those aches and groans and things. And the way that you move is how you heal that stuff, you

Joe Moore: know? Mm-hmm. Great.

Awesome. And then how did, um, how did this whole kind of, well, what came first, like event [00:12:00] medicine, like stadium or the zendo interest?

Dr Case Newsom: I started working with Stadium Medical about five or six years ago when I took over coordinating.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: And, uh, coordinating at Red Rocks. That is. Um, and I started working with the Zendo project formally at Psychedelic Sciences 2023.

Um, I’d had some prototyping discussions with, uh, Chelsea Rose, the executive director, um, and a couple other staff members at Zendo prior to that. Um, and we’d kind of hashed out like, what is a medical director? What could a medical director do for you? Um, you know, Zendo project is a front facing harm reduction entity.

It wasn’t immediately obvious that you would need medical bonafides for that. Um, but once you are stepping into. Peer support and harm reduction alongside healthcare entities or security. Mm-hmm. Service lines like you’re gonna need to have some amount of [00:13:00] medical assessment and observational skill. Um, and so that discussion I was able to have with them intelligently because of my few years being a medical director with stadium and understanding how you, you know, teach individuals that are looking to you for knowledge, um, and how you create protocols, how you ensure adherence to them, how you do quality assurance, improvement and so on.

And really just being part of the flow as somewhat an advisor, somewhat a director, somewhat a clinician. So it felt very natural to start working with Zendo project because I saw some simple things that could be done, you know, um, and to my knowledge, uh, nobody had really had that discussion with them specifically.

Now, Zendo project. The people in there are very bright, like they were getting a sense that they were needing something like this. Um, but when I was able to come and give it some heft, then it became pretty clear. But I couldn’t have had that discussion were it not for Stadium.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. And

Dr Case Newsom: similarly, excuse me.

Uh, one of the reasons I was able to help Stadium so much too is that I had [00:14:00] started. Creating some content and lecturing EMS agencies and police and sheriff departments and things in the activism days, you know? Mm-hmm. In 2018, 2019, and the decrim phase there in Denver, and it was clear that physicians and first responders were gonna need a little bit more education on how you can maintain composure with these sorts of encounters in the field when individuals are having a, a hard time.

Um, because it can be very volatile in the wrong setting. And if you don’t posture with comfort and leading with your warmth, then that’s gonna encourage that person to spin out even further. And so that con, that content I was developing and starting to, to lecture and um, and hearing some of the back and forth with some of those first responders was informative for how I could also then bring that wisdom to Zendo project as well.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. We’ll see how that light goes. So, um, yeah, it’s hilarious trick your has arrived. Yeah, I’ll fix that in a minute. So [00:15:00] the next thing is like, is there, is there like a unique set of concerns for Colorado based events? Like you getting started at Red Rocks, for instance? Like you probably saw some somewhat unique things.

Dr Case Newsom: Yeah, that’s a nuanced question. Um, what I would say is at. At the fundamental level, Denver and Red Rocks in particular have clearly become, uh, a destination for EDM for individuals that are looking for a spectacular experience. And a lot of it, of course, is, um, is young individuals that are new with the medicine, if you will.

And so just the population density and the number of, uh, incredible events that we have here is special, I think, um, in a way, I mean, I’ve had people that have traveled all the way from Europe and Asia to come to Red Rocks, and I’m taking care of them for their altitude sickness while they’re partying, you know?

Um, but the, I feel like we’ve crossed a, a critical mass [00:16:00] of Denver and Colorado at large, being a beacon for safe accessible. Experimentation with Psychoactives. And in a large part, I’m, I’m for that, it’s just that we do need to be skillful in how we can respond to that to keep safety, you know? Um, as far as Colorado, otherwise, I mean, there’s certainly regulatory stuff that’s unique.

Um, and the legislation that we’ve, we’ve seen and all the activism that we’ve engaged in, it’s a hotbed for discussion on how to do this right? How to do this well, maintain accessibility. Um, and there’s other people that could speak more fully about that, but we’re all in it here. Mm-hmm. You know?

Joe Moore: Right.

Like, this is, this is a hotbed for it. Mm-hmm. And it’s like the. Um, I guess the legal situation is, and, and, and like really the cultural situation such that, like, this is definitely, this is just part of the fabric of this place. Like, I didn’t, like, I was trying hard to [00:17:00] access this kind of stuff when I was in New England, in like Boston, and I could not, I could not figure my way out, uh, to like get, get involved in some way, even though it was hosting Burning Man meetups and like definitely all these things.

Um, it wasn’t until I was here and really engaged in the Phish world that I was able to actually, like, um, I did all of this study and then it took like, oh, I had to go to a Phish show and that was it, a show with the right people. I was going to Phish shows before I had access, but, you know, yeah. With the right people.

And then I was like, oh, cool. And you guys have this kind of like group care framework already built in, in your community For sure. ’cause Phish shows didn’t have Zendo project and, you know, and, uh, we can get into that in a moment. Not yet, no. And um, yeah, it was just, it was a fascinating and cool culture to see developing and sure, there was a lot of overuse and sure I was an over user, but that was radically educational for me and actually helps how I show up now for psychedelics today.

Dr Case Newsom: Mm-hmm. I think that’s a great point. Um, you know, Timothy Leary famously said, find the others, [00:18:00] you know? Mm-hmm. And, uh, there have been these nodes. That occur naturally since?

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: Well, I mean, probably, honestly, before I could even really think of it, but certainly in the sixties that we all understand and it feels like Denver is at that point now where, um, you can go there and rest assured that you will find others, if you will.

Yeah. And I mean, just the other day I was walking through the Rhino, uh, with my wife. Um, we had gone to this wonderful jazz show and then we were wandering just down the street just to take in the sights. And um, I mean, there were shows happening in the back of bars that felt like little miniature EDM Yeah.

Bangers.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: And there’s people all over the streets that are pushing psychedelic art and materials and so on. You walk into some of the newer bars and it’s just clearly informed by the psychedelic experience and it’s just right there in the nightlife. Mm-hmm. I’ve just had never seen anything like that.

It’s same back. Shout out, shout out

Joe Moore: to Beacon and Mockingbird. I’m sure there’s plenty of others, [00:19:00] but you know, it’s, you named it. Yeah. It’s really, really beautiful venues and just the design and like, you know, so beautiful. It’s not just about maximizing sales at the bar, it’s like, seems to be fundamentally about connection.

Dr Case Newsom: Yep. Maximizing the experience there feels like. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We wandered through before it got busy and I was still like in awe I had never been. Mm-hmm. I was in Beacon particularly and amazing. Honestly. Right. Definitely aimed to bring some folks there and Patron there.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And um, yeah, so it’s in, it’s in the fabric of the place and we were at a point, um, kind of sixties, seventies counterculture hub, like famously, I think Bear Oley spent a bunch of time here manufacturing, uh, LSD and probably plenty of others.

So, you know, it’s, and the way I put it in the music scene is, you know, not every New York band or Florida band makes it to la. Not every LA band makes it to New York or Florida. Everybody makes it to Denver. Pretty much. And like when I started like engaging in the music scene here, [00:20:00] I was flabbergasted by my level of access to music and, you know, with nightlife and music comes substance and, you know, um.

It’s, it’s a, it’s a fascinating cultural experience and experiment.

Dr Case Newsom: Totally. Coming from Florida, I’ve always thought of Denver in terms I could understand having grown up there, it feels like a port city,

Joe Moore: you know? Yeah.

Dr Case Newsom: For the ocean of the mountains, if you will. And everybody just stops in here. There’s like this great continental divide.

Mm-hmm. And it feels like you just gotta like metaphorically gas up, fuel up, get inspired, ground down in Denver, and then move on, continuing in your flow. And yeah. I couldn’t feel luckier to be living here. And I, I don’t know if there would’ve been this career path that I found myself on, kind of bridging harm reduction healthcare outreach, still maintaining my emergency medicine work, but having all of this other opportunity to make a difference.

I’m not sure I would’ve been able to do that in any other place, honestly.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: It’s hard to prove a negative. I’m not in those other places, but, um, there’s just no [00:21:00] question that it’s a feedback loop here. I’m feeling fully inspired by where I’ve landed and we’ll continue on deepening all of this, you know?

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so Zendo was kind of, has an interesting founding story. It kinda like came about in Burning Man a lot of interesting ways and, um, it developed into a really interesting cultural institution. It’s a, it’s a 5 0 1 C3 on its own now, but it was historically fiscally sponsored by maps, I think.

Correct, correct. Yeah. And now, now that it’s standing on its own, I’m really curious to see how it will unfold. Um, but what it has done, you know, beyond how it’s gonna unfold is inspired a lot of organizations to start up more local, um, regionally appropriate, I hope, organizations offering somewhat similar services.

Have you, have you all kind of thought about that or thought about how you’re inspiring elsewhere? Uh,

Dr Case Newsom: we think so much. It’s one of my favorite things about these people. Um, I, I’d like to speak on the regional Yeah. Point there. Um, we have been [00:22:00] brainstorming how to create. Something like a dispatchable model in which we can help encourage local individuals to coordinate and execute on their own.

Harm reduction version. Mm-hmm. Um, we’ve been lovingly calling it like zendo in a box, you know, where we could literally just send supplies and create some task sheets and some know-how. Um, and vet a coordinator, for instance, train them up and then they can start to roll it out. Um, where we know that the principles will be upheld, um, and kind of how we do our process both.

And that includes how you build the space, how you interact with other service lines, how you have the tactical approach that we have for green dots in the field, like just doing the work. And this is one of the big things about the Denver pilot that we’re engineering, where we’re starting to create a small regional, like spoke and wheel sort of model right there.

Mm-hmm. For how we can do these events more on a weekly basis kind of deal. Mm-hmm. And then we’re hoping to study that [00:23:00] honestly, and we’re gathering data from participants and the services that we’re working with, hoping to do an impact assessment. Mm-hmm. Study this, publish it, and this can encourage more adoption.

In other metro areas or other regional smaller events like say Regional Burns or other festivals. And I, I would, I would just love for the way that we do this work to just happen everywhere, whether it’s Endo Project or not. Mm-hmm. And I mean, there’s no question that the, the brand is super recognizable and I’m, I mean, every time I wear a shirt like this, I’m getting hollered at, it’s awesome.

But it doesn’t have to be, it could just be anyone that’s doing a thoughtful, skillful approach at harm reduction. And you are definitely starting to see that now. Um, but one of the big questions is. How do you get the industry at large, whether it be healthcare or first responders or you know, the music industry and venue producers, et cetera, to understand that this is a version of harm reduction that is much more tactical and skillful as a point of care, as opposed to disseminating information or [00:24:00] offering, you know, drug testing and this kind of stuff, which all super valid.

But harm reduction is such a huge tent term now, and Zendo project, I feel like is one of the pioneers at helping create a actual service out there covering the field. Mm-hmm. And you are seeing that everywhere now and it’s beautiful, but I really hope that we can expertly create that crafted so that we know that the model will work and be sustainable in the future.

Joe Moore: Yeah. There’s um, a few things here. So, um. There’s legal stuff that gets in the way sometimes for how we actually want to help people based on the science and based on experience. And that’s stuff that really needs to get worked on and figured out, right? Like, I don’t, I don’t know the answer other than probably let’s eliminate those laws that are getting in the way of us helping people.

Um, but the, the part two here, there was a presentation at Horizons, I think probably 18 or 19, I think it was the same year. Carl Hart was there. I think it was 19 maybe. [00:25:00] And, um, this presenter from the uk, I think from the Loop was this really amazing organization over there. They implemented, actually not, not Zendo style work, but more like drug checking work.

Mm-hmm. 80% year over year reduction in hospitalizations by one. Implementation like that. My gets gracious. Wow. You know, that’s England. It’s not Denver. England has a different drug culture Sure. By a long shot. Um, but you know, by, so this is the thing that is actually in fact often illegal. Not, not what Zendo is doing.

Zendo is quite legal, but like actually being able to say, Hey, is your thing safe or not? Cool. Great. No, it’s not. And a lot of people were just throwing out the stuff that they mm-hmm. You know, had after their anonymous testing.

Dr Case Newsom: Yeah. Um, thanks for naming that. That is incredible stat. I had not heard that.

Um, I need to find that and read about it. Uh, not surprised though. Um,

Joe Moore: because when we know our dose and actually what we’re doing, which is a problem with prohibition and drug markets in [00:26:00] general, um, we can then make more informed decisions. Not like, here’s some ibuprofen powder. You know, good luck.

Dr Case Newsom: You were speaking to my civil liberties perspective here, man.

Yeah. It feels like we should be able to be knowledgeable on what we’re buying, and we should have the autonomy and agency to pursue whatever sort of mind alteration we want, and it should just make it so it’s as safe as possible by having it be open and mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Uh,

Dr Case Newsom: easy to vet, you know, and I know that that’s a whole deeper conversation, but I mean, famously, one of the things that gets in the way of us doing our work as well as, you know, epochal organizations like Dance Safe and SSDP, these other groups are amazing, is the Rave Act.

It just, it gets in the way of producers or legislators feeling comfortable at working to promote safer practices. Event

Joe Moore: producers, not drug producers here. Did I say drug producers? You just said producers. Oh, I just wanted to specify Event producer wanted specify.

Dr Case Newsom: Totally. Yeah. Um, drug producers keep doing your thing safely.

Please, please. Um, yeah, it’s, I mean, it, it makes it [00:27:00] so that, uh. We already have an uphill climb at being able to bring best practices into these industries because of the fearfulness for these in these folks that are putting on big events. It’s going to look like, like in a legal sense, that they’re aiding and abetting illicit use.

And I just like, I have so many issues with that. Like just like how you, you can’t stop individuals from. Being the way that they are. Why in the world would we just continue to worsen their predicaments in the event that they get their head over their skis or get into something that’s impure or that they’re in a uncomfortable setting?

Mm-hmm. They’re being tackled, you know, and restrained and sedated even instead of being able to be supported through like,

Joe Moore: yeah,

Dr Case Newsom: it just on on every level. It’s meritorious for me to bring harm reduction in, but I do understand that there’s a lot of regulatory issues there, and since I’m not somebody that has capital or has the opportunity really to create these spaces [00:28:00] overall, like a festival or like a venue, I understand it gets really in the weeds, but we all need to.

Form a coalition and advocate against some of these laws, in my opinion.

Joe Moore: Yeah. I was on the phone with my county health department ’cause I wanted to like understand what their positions were. Um, like one of the few places in county, I think they’ve improved it recently and we we’re kind of like a county thing ’cause population’s so sparse here.

Sure. Um. Was they, you know, they, to pick up fentanyl test kits, you have to go to the sheriff’s department, which like, I have some, you know, strange opinions on because like, do I want to go be near police? Usually? Not usually. Yeah. Like my boy Sarco, I’ll go hang out with, but like, and Diane from, from Leap for sure.

But like, I, I like, I have a hard time saying, oh cool, like, I’m about to go do drugs, let me get these things from you guys. And, and you know, um, I, I think that’s, um, misguided and kind of like a strange use of [00:29:00] tax dollars when we could say like, okay, what’s the easiest way to do this and get this in front of people?

It’s clearly not making them go interact with police who they’re already kind of nervous around. Right? Yeah. Um, so I was chatting with them about that and then I’m like, okay, cool. What do you have next? Oh, a needle exchange program. Great. Cool. But. How much bloodborne pathogen is happening from like needle users in this county.

And they couldn’t give me any figures. Wow. They’re like, we just got the grant, so we’re doing it. I’m like, Hmm. And then I was like, okay, here’s, here’s what you guys wanna do. If you wanna reduce deaths a lot. And hospitalizations a lot is county based anonymous drug checking. And they, they just kind of freaked out and got nervous because politicians and like government workers are kinda inherently conservative ’cause they wanna keep their job.

Dr Case Newsom: Totally. Yeah. It’s, um, it’s really hard to do the right thing. Um, there’s also some practical limits to being able to. Create excellent data. Mm-hmm. Um, and be able to process it [00:30:00] through. Um, a good example would be, uh, when I, I was asked, uh, recently by a large city in Colorado. I’m still kind of working on this relationship, but, uh, they’ve asked me to come and lecture their, their 9 1 1 dispatch team, like the entirety of fire and sheriff and police and their nine one one call center dispatchers and stuff.

Can’t wait. And I was talking with them about, um, data and, you know, how many encounters do you think that first responders are having? How many calls, um, how long does it take to get to psychoactive related or psychological crisis calls? And they’re relying on a lot of. I mean o older software in the first place, um, or imprecise, uh, detailing of what an encounter really is.

So then they’re relying on, well, what does the doctor in the ER diagnose the person with? And we’re gonna try to work backwards from. Oh, okay. So clearly we are gonna know how many people are using LSD and having crisis because [00:31:00] it’s gonna say so in the, in the medical books. Right? Not at all. I mean, they, even me, I’m guilty of it.

I just diagnose people with altered mental status. You know? ’cause you gotta keep moving. You can’t possibly dial in the details of every encounter so that then you can do a data poll from software. So there’s just a lot of, um, practical, but also this sort of underlying print like sensibilities of individuals if they’re willing to get into those deeper discussions.

Like the fentanyl test strip, you’re talking, there’s so many things that get in the way of being able to be really intellectual about these. When am

Joe Moore: I gonna be honest with a physician I’m working with about what I consumed? Like that’s a really interesting thing. Um, and then back to prohibition. How do I actually know what I consumed?

Dr Case Newsom: Mm, good question. Adulterants novel

Joe Moore: adulterants are coming like crazy and

Dr Case Newsom: Totally, yeah, for sure. Uh, this is gonna send me down a rabbit hole of the future of designer drugs too, and how it’s gonna be impossible to keep up as we start having more and more developed. The cost of [00:32:00] developing is gonna be cheaper.

You’re gonna have AI that’s like producing like shulgin level compounds, like on the daily, you know? Mm-hmm. It will be impossible to keep up if we don’t have just an open and almost like. Intellectual discourse about this and how you can be an expert in this field, but I don’t know how easy it is to prioritize a career in like drug harm reduction right now.

It’s just, there’s a few people that do it really brilliantly, but they have so many headwinds they’re trying to overcome and I feel like we could get there, uh, with aid of technology.

Joe Moore: AI assisted robotic chemistry, um, or AI owning it is fascinating, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, once these things kind of can have their own crypto wallets and like access to like, you know, all these services, it’s gonna be fascinating to see how that unfolds because there’s like, Leonard Picard famously says the amount of like who mm-hmm.

Not only was like, you know, this LSD guy, but the GOAT by the way, he, um, yeah. Find the others. He made a lot of others didn’t he? [00:33:00] He predicted the fentanyl crisis in a, in a, um, paper he did at Harvard, and then it got picked up by Rant Corporation, and this is in the nineties, he predicted the Fentanyl crisis.

Um, and all it takes is unscrupulous actors and a little bit of chemistry and, you know, you can make this thing. And now with the advent and, um, cheapening of computation and robotics and these things like the speed at which this is coming. So to me, that that concept, the way you laid that out, like AI robotics and like, you didn’t say robotics, but you know, the idea is that.

Um, this is a greater incentive for government organizations to work towards deprioritizing, decriminalization and, and potentially legalizing towards safe supply. Mm-hmm. As, as a solution, as a hedge against these drugs that might be wildly more damaging and addicting. Right. Might be. We don’t know yet.

Right.

Dr Case Newsom: So much we don’t know. And the only way tos come to know something is to put a lot of energy and resources and support into it. Mm-hmm. I’d love to see that happen.

Joe Moore: Yeah. So here again

Dr Case Newsom: with maybe Denver is on the front perhaps, you know.

Joe Moore: Let’s hope. I hope so. [00:34:00] Yeah. Um, here to help. Yeah. I love how high speed my rant was there.

Um, I’m here

Dr Case Newsom: for it. I know, I, I was telling you earlier, I usually talk at 1.25 x speed and that’s just the way I like to live, man. I’m here for it.

Joe Moore: Yeah. My audio books are a 2.5, so I know my head can’t keep up sometimes with, uh, what my mouth tries to do. So anyway, like the back to Zendo here. Um, so you kind of entered in 23 mm-hmm.

And you were able to create or co-create a new kind of medical triage protocol. Can you talk about like what was ingredient in that and what, what kind of did you output?

Dr Case Newsom: Yeah, totally. Uh, thanks for asking, man. Getting into brass tacks about the med triage protocol. This is, this is where I thrive. This is my favorite stuff.

Yeah, totally. Um, so. What we needed to do at Zendo project was not only have a person to act as a liaison with emergency medical services so that there was ongoing constant dialogue and making sure radio communications and presentations were clean with who [00:35:00] arrives at the Zendo project mm-hmm. Versus who’s arriving at security or medical from the field, et cetera.

We had to have an individual that’s actually credentialed practices healthcare in some form, whether EMT paramedic, nurse, physician, um, at the front of the Zendo project because we needed to make it that the sitters that are doing the grounding work and observing and validating the person’s experience, they need to feel comfortable that their person is safe, the guest is safe, and we couldn’t ask that every sitter have medical credentials, you know, obviously.

Yeah. So what I needed to be able to do was create a position and a workflow that ensured that we had an observational quality at all times. And so, uh, when people arrive, they are encountered by a greeter that’s getting a sense of if they’re the person is needing support. And the medical triage individual’s job is to, with open and [00:36:00] vulnerable and soft language with composure and the same grounded energy that you would expect of any Zendo project volunteer.

They need to be able to encounter that guest and get a sense that they actually are not facing a medical risk, excuse me. Which is difficult of course, because the special sauce about Psychoactives is that it is very activating and modifies the way your physiology is working. And so people do end up with a lot of abnormal looking medical signs, like vital signs can be abnormal.

Um, they can have altered mental status, et cetera. They could be even presenting delirious, like in our medical term there, where they’re in and out of attention. And a typical medical assessment there. Will be abnormal, just almost categorically, you know, in the event that Psychoactives were used, of course a lot of folks are not using substances when they come to Zendo, but this is a large cohort of our guests.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: And so I needed to be able to create a protocol that was sensitive to [00:37:00] the abnormalities that are expected. In a person that’s presenting that way so that we could smartly still allow entry so that we’re not just sending every single guest to medical and then they get lost to the peer support services that really they’re, they’re needing benefit from.

And so that was a little bit tricky, but um, with my emergency medicine training and. How I’ve held space for, you know, now decades for individuals under the influence or in the, uh, headspace that’s really activating. I, I was able to build something that allows admittance for most individuals, particularly since we also have the medical triage volunteer coming through the zendo itself and checking in with each sitter and each guest on a routine cadence, like every 30, 60 minutes.

Mm-hmm. Just swinging through and touching base and. I mean, every time it’s, you get on the ground, you are attuning to the guest, but you’re always [00:38:00] maintaining a little bit of the directive of just trying to suss out if they’re having any particular feelings that might be medical, uh, in nature or any sort of distress that’s actually physiologic, um, that has implications for their health safety.

And then you move back to the front and you rinse and repeat. And so it was, it was this delicate thing of, um, sensitivity and specificity, which, you know, doctors talk about all the time of how you dial in the effectiveness of a, of a test or a screen. And that’s how I approach the med triage protocol. Mm.

And I must say, since we’ve rolled it out, um, you know, two plus years ago, we haven’t had a single medical issue in the Zendo, which I think is fantastic. And really, we, we only escalate a handful of folks to medical for each event. Um. To put some numbers to this when we were at Phish, where UME got to kick it for a minute, which was awesome.

Also, shout out to that three night run at Folsom Field. That was incredible. Just a couple weeks ago, [00:39:00] um, I guess it was 4th of July, so a month ago, um, we had an expectation from Stadium. Stadium was working the medical side. Mm-hmm. We had an expectation of maybe 25 to 30 transports over that three night run, and we diverted about 25 to 30 presentations from First Aid towards Zendo instead, like as in, they weren’t even evaluated by medical because we were able to help bring them to Zendo.

Since we have a medical person there that’s able to do some observation and the number of transports we had was only seven. For the whole three nights. So, I mean, it was like an order of magnitude almost difference from what we expected. And we didn’t have a single medical malady, uh, express itself in the Zendo and were that to have revealed itself.

I’m confident we would’ve been able to recognize and escalate them back to medical and Stadium would’ve been more than happy to manage. And then they can go from there with their workflow, or in the event they tighten everything up, they come back to [00:40:00] Zendo, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, so really it is, it’s this beautiful push and pull with, uh, the other service lines that we have where we can actually, using the protocol that I’ve built, offload some of their strain.

Mm-hmm. You know, and make it so that not only are you removing, quote, a hazard from the field where that person could fall, they could hurt somebody else. Yeah. Hurt themselves, whatever. We’re also now allowing them to process their experience. So we’re getting a two for one with that episode there. Um, and they’re doing it safely because we have a medical person there at all times observing.

Joe Moore: I love that. Like, can you gimme like a couple high kicks of things that would make people wanna, you know, get, um, redirected towards med services? Like, uh, uh, irregular heart things, blood pressure?

Dr Case Newsom: Sure. I mean, a classic one, uh, when you are overly exposed at, say, burning man mm-hmm. It’s gonna be that you have temperature dysregulation, right?

So you’re, you’re hot, you’re cold and [00:41:00] resistant to some passive warming or cooling. Mm-hmm. Some people are just not quite getting back to safe temperatures in a matter of 15, 20 minutes, which is where I have that dialed in, then they would go up to medical for more further support fluids, that kind of thing.

Um, certainly abnormal heart rates or arrhythmias would be a, a classic thing that we would get all bent outta shape about in, in healthcare. Mm-hmm. But essentially everybody has an elevated heart rate when they’re coming in and they’re distressed. So we allow for that. You know

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: On the understanding that we are keeping close tabs and we need to see it improving in short order.

Mm-hmm. And because of the way we have the space, almost everybody’s nervous system settles, their heart rate improves, but say, uh, we’re talking

Joe Moore: like 10 to 30 minutes-ish, or Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Case Newsom: I mean, honestly, some people it’s within a minute, you know? Totally. Of course, if it’s anxiety or psychologically oriented and they’re having like a reic, you know, adrenaline type response mm-hmm.

They, you, you get into a grounded space and [00:42:00] immediate nervous system reset. You know, other folks, it is that they’re also hot, they’re dehydrated, whatever. Mm-hmm. And so we can support them with those, those basic, uh, peer support items and they get better in, in, yeah. Within a few minutes. Um, and if not, or if they’re moving in the wrong direction, then they go to medical.

You know, um, another one would be, uh, if a person just cannot support their own weight, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, we are not really able to like, manage a person like nurses would be able to expertly assist a person with their body functions and stuff if they can’t hold their own weight. So things like that, we just, as much as we’d love to support them, they have to go to medical.

But of course when we have a good relationship with medical mm-hmm. By having a medical director at Zendo, especially if I’m also a medical director at Stadium, we bring Zendo into the medical area and now we’re able to provide some peer support right there and make the EMTs and paramedics job all the easier so they can focus on the strident medical expression of that person’s.

Uh, issue, you know, as opposed to them also now [00:43:00] having to constantly be redirecting and agitating the patient with all the red shirts and everything, which you need for visibility, but just having a zendo person coordinating within medical mm-hmm. Makes all the difference too. So this really is becoming like a bit of a matrix that we’re able to support in the field, in medical, at the security office in Zendo.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, ugh, I wanna go in a million places here, but, so let’s, let’s point out one, one, like really obvious advantage. Um, at this Phish situation, which was extraordinary. It was the first time I think Phish had Zendo, which is great. And, uh, yeah. A lot of people were like, what is Zendo? And so, you know, I had to explain it a lot and I’m sure you did too.

As usual,

Dr Case Newsom: one of the busiest places at any festival or event is in the front of the Zendo project, which is so cool. People are so interested.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. That’s where I hung out. Um, but yeah, so this kind of tight integration with your role at Zendo and Stadium, like, you know, that that’s an obvious advantage, right.

And I think in time, [00:44:00] what’s gonna have to happen elsewhere right? Is like similar types of closeness in the organizations and coordination. Um, because you know, if there’s disc coordination between medical and these kind of like, um, zendo style service centers, like how Yeah. Like that’s just gonna have to be something we have to focus on to get that level of performance that you got from 30 to seven Totally.

You know, over three nights, which is crazy that that was a lot of people. It was not a small crowd. No,

Dr Case Newsom: no. For sure. Yeah. I mean, one of the hardest parts when you are still developing a, I mean, we are a scrappy, upstart organization. Mm-hmm. Right? And one of the, the hardest things is just having the conversation at all, like getting to the table with other safety officers and being able to discuss what it is that you actually do.

Mm-hmm. And how we can actually deepen our workflow to be more in collaboration. And one thing that happened at the Eclipse Festival outside [00:45:00] Austin, uh, last year, which my goodness, like life changing moment, I’ve never seen a solar close before. Incredible. Um, there was a, an amazing medical entity there, uh, called um, NES, uh, national Emergency Services.

They cover big festivals by Bonnaroo and, um, electric Forest, et cetera. And they had like, heard of Zendo project, but. You know, it was difficult to kind of have briefing discussions mm-hmm. Ahead of the, the event and so on. And, um, you know, everybody’s busy. Right. And like an additional meeting, you know, uh, with another service line can get a little bit heavy to, to carry all that as you’re prepping for an event.

We got there and at the event it was just kind of clear that there was some, uh, chunky bits with how we were getting guests arriving at the Zendo project. We were like a half mile away from First Aid and like their main like, sort of medical area and, um, we were constantly going to retrieve people from First Aid, et cetera.

They had some [00:46:00] explosive outbursts in medical that I was witnessing and, um, it was making everything feel unsafe.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: After just kind of like assessing the workflow there and where there was some discrepancies, like we sat down together, me and their operational leads, and we hashed out what supplies do we have?

Um, where can we like share resources? Can we borrow some extra radios? Can we borrow a four wheeler, et cetera, so we can do more of a field response? And it changed everything. It changed everything. Mm-hmm. Our workflow completely dialed in with the, just a few switches and we took that, learned from it, and now we like are bringing that example into.

Pre-event briefings and figuring out how we can start to work with entities that don’t know what the Zendo project is, but we’re, so we started creating things like a one pager. It’s like, this is literally what we do. Here’s how we, here’s who we take care of. Here are the things that categorically are not best served in our space.

Here’s our green dot [00:47:00] sort of approach and our field, uh, response. Like all this stuff so that then it’s easy for individuals and other organizations to realize what we do. You know, and that takes like an ongoing vigilance to be persistently, uh, advocating for your services and how expert we’ve made it.

Mm-hmm. And how professional we’ve leveled up peer support. I mean, that, that’s what kept me with the Zendo project when I was still first learning it and the opportunity to show by example. And we’re starting to see more and more organizations are just kind of now knowing what we do, you know, and realizing that it’s not something that they should have to be doing themselves.

’cause Division of Labor here mm-hmm. Leads to abundance. Let us do this part. Yeah. You guys can focus on your part and they get it. Now,

Joe Moore: do you have, so like over time, what I would love to see and you know, is more data that, that you can point to and stats Yes. To say, Hey guys, like this is gonna lower your burden.

This is gonna lower your liabilities. Like, how, how can we work with you given this [00:48:00] information being true? Absolutely. Are you guys working towards some data sets like that? Yes, indeed.

Dr Case Newsom: Outstanding. It’s, it’s like, oh man, it scratches the nerd itch in me. I’m so happy to be back in research. Um, I just, I love like, uh, sweating over data and the trends and what you can pull from it.

Mm-hmm. So then you can. Orient follow up questions. Yeah. What’s the next thing? Mm-hmm. And so we, we have a, an incredible crew, uh, as a research committee, um, at Xeno Project. Uh, a lot handful of folks that have like PhD level researchers. Um, and they are donating their time, uh, for us to be able to level this up.

And one of the refrains, um, Nima, who’s brilliant and is kind of the de facto lead for research, he says it took this like 12, 14 years for us to go from zero to one. He’s like, and in the next couple of years, we’re gonna need to go from one to 10. Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: And the

Dr Case Newsom: only way to be able to do that is to really be skillful at data gathering, data analytics.

Then how we are [00:49:00] able to disseminate our findings. And so that is happening actively and it’s one of the benefits of the Denver pilot that I have my relationships with Stadium and have developed relationships with Argus, the security entity that we work a lot with, because I’m able to be this constant interstitial person that can be like kind.

Asking little questions here and there, like, what did you guys value about what we were doing there? Like, can we actually see, like what’s the data? How was it that we reduced the expected transports? Um, did you feel that your reliability was reduced with this? Do you feel that you’ll be able to even maybe down staff, save an ambulance for some nine one one call somewhere else instead of having to expensively up staff every single event that you’re expecting to have psychological distress be a prevailing issue, you know?

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: And like they are responsive to that. ’cause they see that this is value add. And it, it’s, it’s so exciting to me, but it’s also like all research. It’s, it’s slow going, you know? I mean, I published research in residency. [00:50:00] Almost across the board to become a physician, you have to. And so like I remember that it’s a different, uh, timescale than what I’m used to.

Mm-hmm. Um, but that’s cool because it just gives us all the opportunities to start to refine the questions and to then be able to craft an actual publishable, uh, piece that can demonstrate like monetary value and liability mitigation. Yeah.

Joe Moore: All right. So I’m gonna make this podcast even more Real World.

You open that door, so you got a, a puppy that really wants some attention. Hi puppy. Um, and yeah, so this will be helpful. This is the, uh, puppy room. So I, I’ve gone to these festivals and they actually like, have a ongoing joke that there’s a puppy room, and I saw this year at PS 25 that there actually was a dog room, like a therapy dog room, which I found fascinating.

And I think that’s cool as like a sensory thing for some people who can get overstimulated. Mm-hmm. Like I just, I just finished reading, um, a memoir of, um, autistic woman called, um, [00:51:00] oh gosh, I have to, I have to dig for the title, but effectively she didn’t get diagnosed until maybe 36. Whoa. Interesting.

Right. And which is actually really common. And then, you know, probably a little earlier than that and one of the, um. Wa so hard. One of the interesting stats they pulled was, um, one in 36 Americans being, um, diagnosed autistic and, or autistic. I don’t know, like getting an actual diagnosis is so hard.

Mm-hmm. Um, and expensive. And it actually comes with some things, um, jumping too. And it comes with some like burdens. Like you don’t, you don’t, you can actually lose some rights if you get a diagnosis in terms of like organ transplants and things like that. Mm. Oh wow. So in some states I didn’t know that.

Not every state. Um mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and definitely like some countries won’t let you. I, I think visit and or immigrate there, so like, I, it’s, so there’s a lot of interesting things. So anyway, that figure is probably, [00:52:00] um, not as high as it needs to be. Like I think there’s probably more so like sensory rooms similar to Zendo.

Mm-hmm. You know what, if people are having these kinds of like. Overwhelms that aren’t necessarily drug induced, it’s just how their nervous system operates. Right. And then they can, um, you know, go and chill and downregulate. Right. And they kind of get fixed, like you were saying, by like dropping into a lower intensity space.

Totally South by Southwest head. A sensory room, I guess. Maps, not even just the puppy room. They’re in the dog room. Mm-hmm. They had like, um, you know, uh, real deal sensory room. So it’s like we’re getting more and more information. We’re, we’re getting more and more aware of how to deal with neurodiversity.

Mm-hmm. In like, helpful, holistic and like compassionate ways. So I think, I think Zendo kind of plays a part in that.

Dr Case Newsom: I think so. Um, and in fact, we are of course a proud organization with many neurodivergent folks in our midst that brings all different sorts of perspectives for how [00:53:00] to be able to be in support of anyone showing up in need for some grounding and.

One thing I’ll say, we were talking about Colorado earlier. I feel like, um, we’re gonna be seeing more and more individuals that are neurodivergent, that are feeling inspired by the opportunities that psychedelics bring. Mm-hmm. For them to be able to deepen some sensitivities and to help flesh out some of the things that they’re hoping to flesh about the way that their mind operates.

And if we are not resourced well, to be able to support those individuals through their initial practices with these things. Mm-hmm. I mean, here I’m talking about, you know. The entire facilitation regulatory world. I’m talking about decrem and community models. I’m talking about emergency medicine, family, doctors, and so on.

We need to all be skilled at how to have these discussions and do it in a non-judgmental and grounded way. Mm-hmm. So that individuals that are, uh, [00:54:00] on their own healing path or on their own self-improvement enrichment path, they feel the actual support from the establishment, you know? Mm-hmm. Because I’m not so sure that, um, modern medicine, like has it all figured out, you know, on how to help support individuals that are feeling that they want, uh, a different perspective on their neurodivergence, you know?

Mm-hmm. And so I, I want to empower individuals to be able to do that themselves. But of course, we live in a society, right? Like we have to be able to also then support individuals as a sort of back and forth. Nobody can do this in a vacuum, you know? Mm-hmm. So showing up in support of their intentions is important,

Joe Moore: right.

So about five minutes left here. So what kind of big buckets did we not touch so far that you wanna make sure to touch on?

Dr Case Newsom: Oh gosh. Um, I mean, one of the things that I, I’m still very much in the learning phase, but do have a lot of curiosity [00:55:00] about is the healthcare. Ramifications, rather maybe the healthcare obligation to help with the emergence of Iboga.

Joe Moore: Mm.

Dr Case Newsom: Um, which is not Zendo project related at all, and I’m not an expert at all. But, um, having early discussions about how the healthcare establishment needs to just get real about psychedelics and plant medicines in general is. Coming to a fever pitch here shortly because of Iboga. And for listeners that don’t know, although I’m sure most do, there are some legitimate arrhythmia cardiotoxic risks to iboga, though it is such a profound aid mm-hmm.

For so many individuals in their path to healing, that we need to be able to figure out how to have an indust like the industry, the healthcare scene, the regulators, et cetera. They need to have a way to be able to safely roll out these services so that we’re not starting to see it happen in the underground, where people are gonna be put at [00:56:00] risk while they’re desperately looking for access to that.

Mm-hmm. And then having cardiotoxic episodes that would be pretty easily managed in a healthcare setting. But if we do not have healthcare settings for those, that brings in some unnecessary harms.

Joe Moore: Yeah, it’s a, it’s a huge thing. It’s coming fast, like Texas just threw in 50 million. Mm-hmm. And there’s other, other groups throwing in crazy amounts of money.

Ambio and Mexico’s growing like crazy. Yes. And, um, probably other places as well. I think, like, you know, we’re hurting as a psychedelic ecosystem, but the iboga people are doing pretty good right now. Mm-hmm. And for, for good reasons. But, um, this, this cardiotoxic thing is an Achilles heel on this project.

Yes. And we do need to mitigate it and we do need to talk about it. Um, and, uh. You know, when I talk to service centers, um, offering these things, I’m like, um, you know, I, I’m happy you’re being so safe, but I wonder how, based on science, um, like if we even have enough science to, [00:57:00] to inform this practice.

Mm-hmm. Like, do you really need an ICU level of care? Mm-hmm. Um, I, I don’t know, like for sure you need paddles. Yeah. The,

Dr Case Newsom: yeah, for sure. You need, and for sure you need the ability to do iv Right. Magnesium have the cardiac monitor on which, you know, I, I can’t imagine personally being in an extended psychedelic experience with all of the gadgets on and stuff, but it’s kind of like, yeah.

It,

Joe Moore: people seem to not care that much somehow. Yeah.

Dr Case Newsom: I mean probably because they appreciate the safety. Mm-hmm. And they come to it with a very specific intention. Um, and they. They realize what they’re embarking on, you know? Um, but yeah, the, and it’s, it’s such a huge conversation and there’s some really smart folks in the Denver scene and at large mm-hmm.

That are talking about this. Um, but I’m not hearing any. Healthcare reps or physicians, uh, that are actually coming out and like having the early pilot discussions.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: We need to be able to work towards these [00:58:00] channels for healing that need to be healthcare facility grade.

Joe Moore: Yeah.

Dr Case Newsom: And I mean, if we’re gonna get real on the issues of opiate overuse in America, like we have to have this discussion.

Yeah. In my opinion, you know, but I don’t want healthcare to get so behind on this that then it, it’s like failure to launch. Mm-hmm. You know, or that it starts to happen in the underground and it’s even worse than when the healthcare establishment was caught, uh, unprepared when cannabis, you know, became legal in Colorado and we started seeing all the hyperemesis vomiting syndromes and healthcare like, didn’t know how to handle that.

We figured it out. But iboga is even all the higher, uh, risk honestly, but also huge rewards if we can do it well.

Joe Moore: You gave me a good bridge here. Um, so in terms of opioid addiction, prohibition and um, kind of strange policies, do you feel like fentanyl’s getting a bad rap as an ER doc?

Dr Case Newsom: Oh, I just had this conversation the other [00:59:00] day.

In fact, I love it. I’ve had it a bunch of times.

Joe Moore: Doctors are always great with it.

Dr Case Newsom: Totally. Um, so like anything, it feels like there’s a use case for these. Biochemical tools. Mm-hmm. These neurochemical tools. Um, I use fentanyl every time I go to work on my patients, not on myself, but, uh, there is a skillful use to anything.

Um, and there’s also the safe context for its use for a, uh, virtuous intention, if you will. And I can’t, I have a hard time demonizing anybody, uh, with their use of substances when I appreciate that they have their own coping, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, it’s just that it is easy when you have dealing with an underground market to not be exactly super skillful or knowledgeable on what you’re using.

And so now we’ve made it that your coping is danger, more dangerous than it should be.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: [01:00:00] Um, so Fentanyl getting a bad rap. I, I think so because I use it. So like, how am I, how am I supposed to use a medicine in my patients, uh, when they have something that’s very painful and then turn around and also be like, eh, like, it’s, it’s probably

Joe Moore: every ER doc, not just you.

Dr Case Newsom: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I will say though, um, we are using more and more ketamine in the ed. Mm-hmm. Um, because of the, well, there’s a few factors there, but, um, one of them of course is like, there’s just kind of an overt sentiment, almost to a point of regulation where you have to minimize your opiate utilization in patients, even in an acute issue as much as possible.

Joe Moore: Mm.

Dr Case Newsom: Now. Partly that’s for understandable reasons. There are plenty ways to help somebody treat their pain. Like we can literally use Tylenol and Ibuprofen, and that helps like 80% of people in the er, you know? Um, and then you can use things like infused lidocaine where you’re actually literally doling nerves for the time that you’re in there.

I’ve not heard of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, we could go, we could go deep on all [01:01:00] this. Um, you know, or, um, anti-inflammatories that you give IV are very, very helpful. Ketamine is a rising star, uh, in the ED for not just, um, you know, a, a dangerous psychological expression in which a person’s violent are gonna get hurt, or they’re gonna like, hurt their muscles from straining so much and so on.

Um, but literally at a lower dose just for pain. Mm-hmm. Um, but in a, in the patchwork. We need to have opiates of course, because they serve a very important role on patients with certain conditions. And like we have to be able to honor that. And it’s in the right set and setting, if you will, to go back to Timothy Leary.

Like we create this clinical approach for all these high risk, if you will, substances that we’re skillfully using. Of course, I know exactly my dose, right? I know exactly how much they’re getting when they’re getting it. Nurses are excellent at being able to like scan these things and dial ’em in. So it is like, it’s so clinical and so precise and tight.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: Um, not, not perfect, but still it’s [01:02:00] pretty good, you know? Mm-hmm. And so much so that I trust. That being said, um, ketamine is really helpful because it’s. It’s a totally novel pathway at alleviating the suffering that’s coming with pain, which is what opiates do anyway. They don’t actually really reduce pain sensation much just takes away your caring about it much.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um,

Dr Case Newsom: which is great. But Ketamine’s also excellent in that. And, um, I’ve been using ketamine, uh, in the ED since I was in residency. Of course it was, you know, really started just before I started my training being utilized in the ED and not just for surgery, but like for setting joints and broken bones and suturing kids that are gonna have like a trauma experience if you’re holding them down and that kind of thing.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: And, um, I, I’ve actually found that there are some ways that you can help to. Set the stage with the patient for what’s going to happen when you’re giving them ketamine, um, create the humanity that they deserve. Mm-hmm. In receiving [01:03:00] your healer’s presence, you know, and for me to have the honor of witnessing their suffering.

You can name that. Yeah. And let them know that they’re in a safe place and they actually can have a profound experience while I’m setting their shoulder or something. This has happened a handful of times and, um, I’ve coached the nurses on how to do this now. Um, I’ve coached other physicians and residents and stuff on how to bring the terminology similar to Zendo Project Nonjudgmental, you’re safe here.

Like it’s okay to be vulnerable, you know, trying not to seed their experience with any one thing or another by accident. And then they come out and they had something like a beautiful experience while you’re also working them through something that would be obviously traumatizing, otherwise opiates like, don’t do that, you know?

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: Um, and now admittedly, ketamine for pain. We’re doing lower doses, but still the intentions there, I think we can, we can create multiple benefits with the use of ketamine in an emergency situation that we just don’t talk about. And, um, it, frankly, [01:04:00] it’s not that challenging. It’s mostly just like recognizing your own role as the physician or PA or nurse in creating the setting for that person to feel safe as they’re having some technical work done, but for them, they can have a psychological moment that’s special, you

Joe Moore: know?

Yeah. I love that. I, um, before I tee you up for a, for a close here, I’ll, to share a story where I wish you were the attending doctor. Oh, please. We, uh, my partner and I spent, um, Valentine’s Day in the ER not that long ago on a kind of like a pinched nerve lumbar situation. Yeah. I’ve never seen her in so much pain in my life for hours and hours and hours and like.

You know, we went to one of the nicer ERs up here, actually drove an extra 45 minutes and, um, not naming the hospital. Um, we, uh, yeah, it got delayed ’cause there was like an emergency kind of helicopter landing where somebody was way more in a acute danger. Mm-hmm. But, you know, the, the treatment was IV [01:05:00] acetaminophen.

And I’m like, you know, on one hand cool, but like when we left the, the pain wasn’t really any better at all. And I’m hear it like, okay, like okay, she could kind of walk, but like barely. And I’m like, you know, somebody with a little more fluency and I little less fear. Sure. You know, um, that could have been a much better scenario.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I’m like, oh God. So like, you know, um, yes, in some cases we need to use less opioids as, you know, we’ll speak for clinicians. Yes. A little bit less opioids for sure. Sure. Especially in the chronic aspect. Mm-hmm. But like this idea around like. Insurance providers, hospitals kind of directing how clinicians should be doing care as opposed to clinicians operating in the way they think is best.

Preach is just outrageous anyway, and we’ve

Dr Case Newsom: got, we’ve gotten so used to it, unfortunately. Mm-hmm. Because you cannot take care of patients in any other way. Uh, you know, like we, we are, we are always beholden to many different, um, [01:06:00] priors

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Dr Case Newsom: That the establishment situates on the shoulders of a physician, you know?

Mm-hmm. And this is a huge discussion. Like, I, I love the hospital that I work at. I love all the people that I work with. It’s just that it’s so much deeper than that even, you know? Mm-hmm. And the situation with the IV acetaminophen. It’s a great medicine. It’s not necessarily comprehensive for each person, but now you’ve created something like an order set where it’s like, don’t use opiates, use this.

And you just like click the thing and then you move on. ’cause you’ve got so many patients to see

Joe Moore: and that person needs

Dr Case Newsom: to leave and it’s just, and they can walk. That means they’re good. And it’s like we have only at the bare minimum addressed the emergency quote unquote, by making sure that they’re safe.

Joe Moore: Yeah.

Dr Case Newsom: But like we really, with a little bit more thoughtfulness and this can become kind of natural. It’s not like this is a struggle every time you can make it so that you’re actually really benefiting that person and they’re feeling that they’ve been more cared for. And this is both. Medicinal and otherwise, like, it’s, it can be also just with your presence and helping co the do piece, the osteopathic piece.

[01:07:00] I would love to talk to your partner mm-hmm. And be like, okay, what led to this? Like mm-hmm. How can you do some reparative movements? Right? How do you orient your days around, like the right kind of getting stuff loosened up and healing up, you know, and like, no IV drug is gonna do that. It’s all of it.

This is,

Joe Moore: this is, uh, my role in the relationship and I, I did, uh, I did a, a really ridiculous mountain bike crash ages ago. Drove myself to the ER after peeing blood, and then I was like, I, I was hesitating to hear that. Do I need attention? And like it took hours. ’cause I was so dehydrated. And I was like, uh, and then I called my military vet buddy and he’s like, no, I’ve never seen that.

You should probably go to the house. I drove myself there after doing all sorts of really intense work was so, and I was refusing pain meds the whole time. Wow. And then I got to do a three day stay after getting a taste for Dilaudid at, um, St. Anthony’s West ICU for a bit, which is, you know, it was a good learning experience.

Mm-hmm. I’m a little more chill [01:08:00] and now I know to not refuse pain meds when uh, they’re offered. Yeah. I’m sorry

Dr Case Newsom: that happened. That sounds like a terrible episode.

Joe Moore: Yeah. You know. Thank you. But I’m, I’m mostly, mostly better. Everything, everything,

Dr Case Newsom: everything leads us to right where we are. Right,

Joe Moore: exactly. So where can people follow you and Zendo and Stadium?

Dr Case Newsom: Oh, excellent. Um, so I am personally on Instagram, um, at Case New something. Um, there’s also zendo project.org, uh, and Zendo project is on Instagram as well. Um, and frankly if you wanna sign up for our email listserv, there is like a volunteer interest form on the website and, uh, we service that every day.

Um, we have a spectacular team that runs tech for us. Um, shout out to Armando Jessa, Jess. Um, they do a great job, um, and all volunteer interest is heard and responded to. Um, yeah, and we have a, a monthly newsletter that comes out to emails. Um, and then we’re always [01:09:00] posting updates on our, our various socials about events that we’re gonna get into.

Um, we’ve got a couple coming down the pike. Especially at Red Rocks, I’m super excited about. I cannot wait. Um, yeah, there’s a real blossoming of the Zendo project and it’s gonna take more hands on deck, so any interest is appreciated. Please reach out.

Joe Moore: Yeah. And second it on the training, everybody says it’s extraordinary somehow.

I haven’t taken it yet, but I’ll get there. Oh, you haven’t taken the SIT training? Get me in. Get me in. We’ll do it. Oh,

Dr Case Newsom: it is, it is first class, I think. Mm-hmm. It, it is so excellent. Yeah. Um, Tim and Simone are fantastic educators building on, uh, Sarah and Ryan and some of the legacy work that’s happened at Zendo that founded the organization.

It’s just, I just couldn’t be more inspired by these individuals I work with. I say it all the time. I found a wellspring of inspiration. Mm. And I hope that everybody can find that particular setting to really express their own skillset.

Joe Moore: All right. Dr. Casey Sen, thanks so much.

Dr Case Newsom: Thank you, Joe. This is really a delight.