In this episode, Alexa interviews April Pride: creative entrepreneur, veteran of the cannabis space, and now, founder of SetSet, an educational platform and podcast (picking up where The High Guide left off) for women curious about psychedelics.
With Alexa about to embark on the journey of motherhood, she asks many of the questions parents working with psychedelics have to consider: How do you overcome the stigmas of being a psychedelic parent? How do you talk to your children about drugs? How do you know if a substance is ok to use during pregnancy?
Pride discusses:
Being dubbed “the weed mom” and why she embraced the nickname
Parenting children around drug use and how parents lose credibility when they lie (the kids are going to know)
The need for more research into how substances interact with women’s cycles and changing hormones
Knowing when to trust your doctor and how more conversations lead to more knowledgeable doctors
Microdosing psilocybin and the developing SetSet protocol
He is now the co-founder, Chief Science Officer, and Director of Analytical Science at the Alexander Shulgin Research Institute (ASRI), focusing on the discovery and development of novel psychedelic compounds. While Sasha was passionate about self-experimentation, the Institute is aiming for the next step for these drugs: FDA approval.
He discusses:
Meeting Sasha at the 2nd international conference on hallucinogenic mushrooms in Washington D.C.
Bonding with Sasha while reviewing the autopsy of researcher Robert van den Bosch for possible foul play
The two compounds ASRI is closest to being able to test in clinical trials
The 5-HT2B receptor, risk of valvular disease, and why we will likely be hearing more about this going forward
How AI and new technology can lead to better safety science
In this episode, David interviews Osiris González Romero: philosopher and Postdoctoral researcher on cognitive freedom and psychedelic humanities at the University of Saskatchewan.
Romero believes that our weakest point of research is our knowledge of Indigenous languages, and is focused on highlighting different cultural uses of psychedelics to better inform future drug policy. He’s currently studying more than 100 documents (including one over 400 years old) to establish an honest understanding of why peyote was ever banned.
He discusses:
Mesoamerican psychedelics and their relevance to cognitive liberty and decolonization
How the War on Drugs is our main colonial legacy
The concepts of an ontological turn and ontological pluralism
The neocolonial, biomedical, and spiritual paradoxes found inside the ‘psychedelic renaissance’
How imagination is often viewed through a lens of illusion rather than problem solving or creativity
In this episode, Joe interviews Maria Mangini, Ph.D., FNP: researcher, educator, and midwife who has worked closely with many psychedelic innovators and was part of the original social network at Shulgin Farm – where this episode was recorded. She traces her journey from the influence of pioneers like the Wassons, Shulgins, and Grofs, and historic places like Esalen and Millbrook.
She discusses:
Her early experiences with the Grofs at Esalen and how she met the Shulgins
Gregory Bateson guiding her to become a midwife
The similarities between midwifery and psychedelic facilitation
The unsung work of Denis Berry in saving the Timothy Leary archives
How the working relationship of the Shulgins is a perfect example of the coequality society should strive for
and more!
Notable Quotes
“There is a specific skill set that midwives, for the most part, actually have to possess because it’s the matter of what they do, that is identical or very, very similar to the skills that are needed for somebody who wants to be the ground control for somebody in an unusual state of consciousness [or] for somebody who wants to sit at the bedside of someone who’s actively dying. Those skills are the most difficult part of what we try to teach in those programs. You can’t really transmit that stuff very well in the classroom, but the midwives bring it. They already come with it.”
“Medicine really, at least the way it’s practiced in this country, is mostly about curing, whereas nursing is about caring. And there’s a bigger deficit for caring than there is for curing. We need nurses.”
“I think that the personal elements of the quality of the relationship that people who work side by side in that kind of co-equality can attain is inspiring for people, and it holds out a kind of hope for the ability to move in that direction. I think it’s very important and useful for us to think of the Shulgins as a couple.”
In this episode, released on Ann Shulgin’s birthday, Joe interviews Wendy Tucker: daughter of Ann and stepdaughter to Alexander “Sasha” Shulgin.
Recorded in Sasha’s old office, she recounts her formative years, giving an insider’s look into her Mother’s openness about psychedelics, working with Sasha in the lab, how the Shulgins made a perfect team, and watching a close-knit circle of self-experimenters start to form at Shulgin Farm – and keep coming back over the years.
She talks about the energy infused into the property from the decades of research and gatherings, and how she is trying to preserve it – not just to capture its history and the pioneering research that happened there, but as a beacon for future generations. She imagines weddings, conferences, other communal gatherings, and more. Imagine taking a chemistry course in Sasha Shulgin’s lab?
To learn more about the project and to donate, head to Shulginfarm.org.
Notable Quotes
“When I met Sasha, at first, he seemed a little– I didn’t get his sense of humor. He had such a dry sense of humor, I was like, ‘Who is this guy?’ And I felt a little protective of my Mom, honestly, at first. But soon, I really started to see who he was shining through. He was so good for her.”
“He’d say, ‘You never learn anything by things going right. You only learn when things go wrong.’ And so, that really stuck with me. What a great way to live life.”
“He always left room for the mysterious, the unknown. It’s an interesting blend to be a scientist and yet have this deep knowledge that there’s something else going on. And we can’t really name it, but we feel it. We know it’s there. And that was Mom’s territory. It was really the spiritual, the psychological. That’s why they made such a great team.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Juan Pablo Cappello: co-founder and former CEO of Nue Life Health, whose assets were subsequently acquired by Beckley Waves.
Cappello digs into his recent article which has been making waves across the psychedelic community: “Profit Over Patients? A Critical Look at At-Home Ketamine Therapy.” He created Nue Life with the goal of helping a million people address the root cause of their anxiety, and while the company was successful, he began to see a problematic trend: that using ketamine while providing services of a mental health company is very expensive and resource-consuming, and as companies saw a large percentage of clients requiring maintenance doses, the most profitable business model became essentially slinging ketamine to patients without providing any real integration or aftercare. Are these companies promising healing but really only guaranteeing recurring revenue?
He talks about:
How this emerging model makes it harder for ethical practitioners to be able to provide their services
The tools they built at Nue Life for long-term benefit, and why these should be the main focus – not repeated ketamine
Matthew Perry’s death and how the media was quick to place the blame on ketamine
The need for companies and communities to come to gather and create ethical industry standards for the at-home ketamine model
How cannabis was almost decriminalized under the Carter administration
and more!
Notable Quotes
“There’s all sorts of ethical companies and practitioners who are doing the good work every day on the front lines, and we have to recognize that. We also have to be honest that it’s harder and harder for those ethical practitioners to make a living because of what unethical practitioners are doing every day in the trenches, which is slinging ketamine.”
“Do I think that it’s probably a good trade to take ketamine six times a year as opposed to taking an antidepressant every day? Yeah, that’s probably a good trade. But there’s a better trade. which is: Let’s address the root cause of your depression, anxiety, or trauma once and for all. Let’s do the hard work. Let’s use ketamine as a beautiful tool to help you reset and reboot, and let’s get you well. And let’s support you in your wellness journey going forward, rather than putting you on the cycle of feeling better, feeling worse, feeling better, feeling worse.”
“I absolutely believe the pharmaceutical companies are way too close to the regulators, absolutely. But what do we expect when getting a drug approved by the FDA is a billion dollar proposition? I mean, look at what MAPS has gone through. They’re still raising money, notwithstanding the amazing clinical results that they’ve had with MDMA. …[They’re] continuing to raise money for clinical trials of a drug that wasn’t made illegal until 1982. So it’s not as if, in terms of the safety profile of MDMA, we don’t have oodles and oodles of real life data prior to 1982. Nothing’s a better sign of how broken the system is than what MAPS has gone through.”
She discusses her personal metamorphosis and name change inspired by a powerful ayahuasca experience, and how that moved her into a life more inspired by authenticity and self-love. She gives the details of her retreats, explains her PRISM sessions, and talks in depth about the magic of resiliency: How can we not just return to baseline, but experience post-traumatic growth?
She talks about:
The power of tuning into creativity in times of depression
The efficacy of narrative therapy and writing in general
The universal themes of ‘The Hero’s Journey’ and how much agency matters
The importance of embracing nonfiction, and her upcoming book series, The Dreamweaver’s Legacy
The potential of microdosing psilocybin for menopause
“On the fourth cup, I saw these visions and I heard a voice. And you know how it is. Yes, ayahuasca is a hallucinogen, but this voice was so powerful. And it basically was giving me an opportunity to make a shift. And the first time I heard it, I said no. The next night, I was in the same turmoil again, [and] by the time I got to my fourth cup, the voice came back and I said yes. And as soon as I said yes to this horrible question for me, I had to grab my bucket and I started to purge. And with that purge, I could see from me as a baby to that point, it was as if I was purging that timeline. What I realized is who I had become (because I grew up with so much trauma), I felt stuck. I felt like I couldn’t get out of the loop, even with this powerful medicine. And what she gave me was the opportunity to purge that. And by the third time I’m heaving over the bucket, I knew: I’m being reborn.”
“As a physician, I just recognize that without self-love – without true, unconditional self-acceptance, it’s really hard to be healthy.”
“I think everyone could benefit from just imagining: What would life be like if I had more magic, and I wasn’t so blocked and limited by my usual way of being or seeing things?”
“Many of us have wounding based on our family, or attachment wounds, so we need to heal and we need to recover in community. A lot of the people who do find success with 12-steps: they find that we recover together. I think there’s a certain magic that happens. A lot of my colleagues in this space say the group is the medicine. Yes, we take these magical molecules, but the group brings its own sort of medicine.”
In this episode, David interviews Itzhak Beery: author, shamanic teacher, speaker, trip leader, and founder of ShamanPortal.org, an online community and resource for people who want to learn, practice, and teach shamanic traditions.
Beery shares his transformational journey, starting from his upbringing on a kibbutz in Israel, to his disillusioned advertising days in Manhattan, to the life-altering sweat lodge experience in Hawaii that eventually led him to write the book, Shamanic Transformations: True Stories of the Moment of Awakening, and realize his true purpose. He discusses the two major sides of trust: how to know when a healing path has truly become your life purpose, and how to know who to trust as a good healer in a world of self-initiated shamans.
He and David dig into:
How we all have the innate ability to be a shaman
How Westerners are often seeking healing too young, before they have the capacity to truly understand lessons they may receive
His upcoming book which attempts to teach practitioners how to create narratives out of symbols, The Language of Spirit
The importance in not denying the experiencer’s truth
His insights on palm reading and the concept of predetermined paths
and more!
Notable Quotes
“We are all shamans. Every human being is built– Their DNA is built in to be able to see, to vision, to dream, to dance, to sing, to hug, to drink, to hug, to make people feel comfortable. The ability to do the shamanic work is built in with every one of us, to take care of other people, for the well-being of the community.”
“The main problem that I see is that people from the West come to ayahuasca like a magic drink, but they don’t speak the language of spirit. They don’t speak the language of plants of the Amazon. Now, when you start drinking it from the age of six or eight, you are already understanding the intricate visions that [are] connected to your body and are connected to the whole world of spirit. So they have a context where they can hold what your body physically experienced and what they visually experienced. When we come from [a] digital world [with] zero connection to nature, and we just dumped ourselves into a world that is steeped in magic, we don’t know how to accept it. We don’t speak that language.”
“In our culture, we go to the Himalayas, we go to the Amazon, we go to the mountains, we go to who knows where, to the rivers, to wait for the moment that God will just hit us over the head and we’ll be enlightened. And the truth is that every moment of our life is a moment of awe, of enlightenment, and we have to really sit with it for a minute. We are always looking from the enlightenment outside of [ourselves], that somebody will give it to us. …How many people are going to all kinds of places around the world? But that moment that you are already looking for; it’s already happened. You just have to recognize it. …Every moment that we are alive is a moment of miracle. It’s a moment of enlightenment. And we have to live like that, in that awe, in that place; that every moment is a moment that you can transform your life. You don’t have to wait to take ayahuasca, yagé, nátem, all the other stuff, to experience the transformation.”
In this episode, Johanna interviews Laura Reeves: Glastonbury-based facilitator and medicine woman trained in craniosacral therapy, somatic experiencing, breathwork, and more, who holds retreats at sacred sites in the U.K. and Peruvian Amazon.
She tells of her journey from serendipitously booking a trip to Ecuador just as she first heard about ayahuasca, to the early ayahuasca experiences that showed her our true interconnectedness, to a heroic dose of psilocybin and a trip to the hospital, to being accepted into training with an Indigenous shaman in the Amazon. With a lifelong love of nature, paganism, and ancient traditions, she stresses the importance of connecting to the natural rhythms of the Earth and harnessing its energy.
She talks about:
Self-initiated shamans and the dangers that can come from bad actors operating out of integrity and respect for the lineage
Ayahuasca as a purgative and the power of energetic clearings
Her experience with shamans using Icaros to channel the sounds of plants
Shadow work and its role in personal growth and healing
The energy of Glastonbury, feeling deep connections to sacred places, and how ley lines inspire places of pilgrimage
and more!
Notable Quotes
“I just walked off on my own, and I remember just standing there. And I started hearing the entire symphony of the rainforest and it was like no sound was a mistake. It was like I could see and feel the interconnectedness of every single sound and every feeling of every sound, and I just was there in this orchestra of nature. I guess that was [my first]] experience of this interconnectedness, the energy that kind of weaves between everything.”
“It’s great that these plants are awakening to awaken us now. But what’s unfortunate is a lot of people are then using it as an opportunity to make money, to be the shaman at the front of the ceremony, and they’re not prepared to do the work to actually be in integrity with these sacred lineages.”
“The way in which this other tradition works with the medicine is to drink ayahuasca without the DMT active substance (you still have visions, but it’s different), and then you drink warm water, and you’re literally just purging for about two hours. …And the way that I felt after this: It was like the medicine went down into the deepest parts of my body, into my cells, and just pulled out any toxins, any negative thoughts even, anything at all. And I felt completely clear and energized. My nervous system felt really reset at this point. …I was like: How can we create experiences just with the body where we can feel this depth of liberation and openness?”
She talks about her early abduction experiences, the time when she and her father realized they were both being abducted at the same time (from different locations), and the horrifying experience of six beings entering her apartment and realizing she knew one of them. These experiences led her to Budd Hopkins, and eventually John Mack (who did regression work with her) and the John E. Mack Institute, where she became a peer mentor for abductees. She talks about the validity of alien abductions, the concept of spiritual ecology, and the importance of listening to people: There’s so much we don’t know, so is it fair to label experiencers as schizophrenic just because we can’t replicate the experience?
She discusses:
The commonality of people from the same family being abducted and why some people are lifetime abductees while others are only taken once
The differences in abductions and how some seem to only be mental while others are physical and extremely painful
The story of Linda Napolitano and the famous Brooklyn Bridge abduction
Regressive hypnotherapy work: Are the memories you’re recovering accurate?
Quantum biology, the Penrose-Hameroff quantum theory of consciousness, parallel realities, time travel, and quantum jumping
and so much more! As the X-Files made famous: The truth is out there. And this episode is definitely pretty out there!
Notable Quotes
“I’m so sad about how our religions say that there’s only one being that can help you, because there are lots of beings that will help you. I’m not mad with the one being that our Western worldview says– I’m not mad with him at all, but, you know, there are lots of beings. You just have to not be afraid.”
“When you go through alien abduction stuff, especially when you first do it, the stuff that you remember is nothing that you could come up with from a movie or from your life or from what you know about life, and the physical stuff that happens is so painful that it’s nothing that you would want to come up with. It’s not like ‘I wanted to have this glorious experience.’ …How in the world could a movie make you come up with that stuff when there are no movies about it because there are no words for it and there’s no ontology for it? And it’s so incredibly painful, why would you do that?”
“We don’t understand our own minds, we don’t understand consciousness, [and] we have a religiosity around understanding what ego is. I grew up thinking that ego is this terrible thing, and now I’m like, no, it’s here to keep you in your body. …It’s all about being safe in your body. And when you work with your consciousness, it’s kind of not a thing because it doesn’t matter where your body is or if you even have one. At all these different levels of consciousness, you’re going to find bodies all over the place, and eventually, this one is just really a temporary meat sack. So, you know: Get over it, ego.”
In this episode, Christopher Koddermann interviews Dr. Sam Banister: co-founder and chief scientific officer of Psylo, an Australian biotech company developing next-generation psychedelics.
Banister discusses how he got involved in drug development, how Psylo came about, and the hallucinogenic and non-hallucinogenic 5-HT2A agonists Psylo is working on. He talks about the compromise between immediate need and ambition, and the ethical considerations and possibilities behind developing non-hallucinogenic compounds: What can we take from the psychedelic experience for people who aren’t ideal candidates for one? Is the psychedelic experience truly necessary? And for what indications will these new Gen 3 compounds be most useful?
He discusses:
What we can infer about the volatility of biotech and the state of the psychedelic industry based on recent mergers and acquisitions
The long-term challenges of drug development and the scalability of treatment options
How the initial success of Spravato has played a role in allaying fears around new compounds
Head twitch response and concerns it’s not as accurate of a metric as we’ve believed
Australia’s decision to down-schedule psilocybin and MDMA, and the speed of implementation and licensing: How long will it be before people have easy access?
What he sees for the future and why we need to be careful with language around expectations
and more!
Notable Quotes
“I think the reality is, beyond any ethical consideration, there are just people who won’t want to have a psychedelic experience or are contraindicated because of other comorbidities, family history of psychoses, or other things. These are pretty challenging experiences for a lot of people, if you speak to participants in some of these trials. They’re not without risk. There are adverse events reported from these trials as well. So if we can see good efficacy for any given indication for some of these non-hallucinogenic agents, I absolutely think they will have value beyond whatever else is happening with psychedelic-assisted therapy.”
“Given the waiting times we have in the U.S., in parts of Europe, in Australia, and New Zealand as well, for psychiatrists, for psychotherapists; generally, I don’t see this as being something that will be resolved along the timelines that are needed for this to be a broadly accessible treatment for the numbers of patients who are going to need it. So I think that is probably the largest barrier, in my mind, to the broad deployment of these therapeutics.”
“I think this sort of unbridled enthusiasm needs a bit of a sense check, and I think people should be cautious in the language they use. …I think the communication to patients in this space needs to be done very carefully. These are not substances that are without risk. There are plenty of patients who can have very serious adverse events from psychedelics, and some of these can be persistent and quite problematic – more problematic than whatever disease they’re seeking to treat.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris: founder and head of the Centre for Psychedelic Research at Imperial College London, founding director of the Neuroscape Psychedelics Division at University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), and founder of the Carhart-Harris Lab.
A legendary researcher, he talks about his psychedelic origins: studying Freud, Jung, and eventually Stan Grof and depth psychology to try and better understand the unconscious. He discusses the growth of psychedelics and the cultural shifts he’s noticed (especially in the U.S.), as well as what he’s working on today: researching the influence of psychedelics on set and setting by studying experiences in both enriched and unenriched environments.
He also talks about:
Plasticity: how he defines it, how it relates to critical reopening periods, and how it’s a fundamental thing that transcends the metrics we use to measure it
Early LSD studies, the nervousness surrounding he and David Nutt dosing Ben Sessa, and the youthful energy that kept them going
How plasticity could be exploited to help relieve chronic pain
The potential of psychedelics to help with fibromyalgia and anorexia
How psychedelic-assisted therapy brought care back to health care
and more!
UCSF is seeking survey volunteers, so if you’ve had more than three experiences with ketamine, MDMA, and psilocybin (must have experiences with all three) and want to contribute, do so here.
Notable Quotes
“In my school of thought, that’s not the problem, that’s the opportunity. When something makes sense but it’s abstract, I’m more led by the fact that it makes sense. The abstraction is an opportunity. It’s a richness, a fertility, and we can really dig into that.”
“You notice when people really put mindfulness to the aesthetic, and they lower the lights and with the music: it doesn’t take long and that much effort, really, before it starts to feel like really caring – like actively caring. And it is an intriguing thing to think that that’s absent in the default, you know? That’s a thing that a colleague said to me once; that she loved the fact that psychedelic therapy brought back care. As someone who went into the mental health care profession, she felt like she could care again, for the first time in a long time. And that was not just ok, that was really promoted and made easier in a sense by the paradigm.”
“There’s different hierarchical levels to these assumptions, but the assumptions are often the problem. They guide our experience of the world, but they can entrench us in certain ways, and that entrenchment can be really at the heart of a lot of psychopathology, a lot of mental illness.”
“I guess one thing I’ve discovered, which is fantastic, is just seeing how broad the community is here around psychedelics, and generationally as well. In London, it was really just a young generation, but here, it really transcends generations, and I really appreciate that. There’s something very normalized about psychedelics here that I started noticing very early on; that it was a topic of polite conversation. …That felt like a glimpse of how it will be, not just here, but elsewhere in the future.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Alyssa Gursky, LPC: artist, research associate and study therapist at the Social Neuroscience and Psychotherapy (SNaP) lab, and founder of Psychedelic Art Therapy LLC, which pioneers ketamine-assisted art therapy.
She talks about her first mushroom experience and how her art and creative process instantly felt different – how the judgment and concern about where the art was going disappeared and was replaced by a freedom; a return to a more childlike way of being, where all that mattered was the fun of the creative process, and expressing her inner world in art. They realized how much the creative process related to true embodiment and the ability to be fully present, and how healing it can be to simply be with other people and create art.
She talks about:
The power of being seen in a group, and how the bravery of one person can completely shift the group dynamic
The need for mentorship in the psychedelic space
The comfort and freedom found in affinity groups
The inspiring lives of Genesis P-Orridge and avant-garde filmmaker, Alejandro Jodorowsky
Rick Rubin’s ability to treat creativity as a spiritual act
and how attending a live wrestling event aligns with non-ordinary states.
Gursky is launching a virtual education and support group this March for anyone who wants to integrate art into client work or their own process. Visit her instagram for details.
Notable Quotes
“I used pastels pretty much the entirety of that whole first experience, and I was just so stunned at how much more freedom [I felt]. Like, there were concepts that I was learning, that your creative process is a reflection of your mind. And I felt like there was an observer really present, to where I remember drawing and there wasn’t this judgment of: ‘Well, what is this going to become?’ and ‘What am I doing with this?’ and ‘Should I have used that color?’ – this deep, neurotic, judgemental inner voice. But instead, it was just sensation.”
“When we’re not taking the time to process through what is in our bodies, we start to lose the ability to be present.”
“Psychedelics really help with this: helping people break through the veil of: just trust your impulses – that that artistic sublimation, the process of taking whatever is happening inside and allowing art to be a vehicle to have it on the outside: that is nervous system regulation. That is psychic healing, just to be like, ‘I kind of want to do that,’ and just trusting that. It seems like such a small act, but it’s such a big deal.”
“Art is helping us create the map of our psyche, and psychedelics are giving us wider access to that landscape. It feels like a match made in Heaven for me.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Matthew ‘Whiz’ Buckley: former decorated US Navy F/A-18 Hornet fighter pilot and now, founder and CEO of No Fallen Heroes Foundation, a non-profit focused on healing veterans and first responders with psychedelic-assisted therapy.
Buckley met Joe in D.C. while they were both campaigning for psychedelic therapy to any lawmaker they could speak with. He talks about how the government is spending a fortune on the military, but not paying the total cost, since so much of that is externalized onto the soldiers themselves. He points out how many of them care more about making money than saving lives, and how we need “We the people” moments to wake them up or remove them from office.
He discusses:
His time in the Navy and his transition back to civilian life, coming to terms with trauma and realizing how much was physical (including tinnitus)
His life-changing experiences under ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT with the Mission Within
How we should be teaching veterans about various mental health options (including psychedelic-assisted therapy) as part of their transition process
The signing of the National Defense Authorization Act and the disappointing amount of money reserved for psychedelic research: Was it all just lip service?
The complications that arise when trying to get benefits from the VA while also trying to move on: When honesty about mental health isn’t incentivized, when do you tell the truth?
His experience operating legally in Colorado and how he plans to stay on top of Governor Desantis to bring psychedelics to Florida
and more!
Notable Quotes
“The military does an incredibly good job of turning us into human beings that are capable of doing some pretty horrific things to another fellow human being. And then when they’re done with us, they do a pretty shitty job of transitioning us back to being a human. They pay lip service to it, but there’s no return in it: ‘Hey man, you’re getting out. You’re not our problem anymore. We’ve got to focus on the next generation of killers.’”
“If we can get our first responders healed along with our military, I think this world would be a better place. …These medicines have the potential to turn warriors into peacemakers. And maybe that’s also why they’re illegal; they need little uniform killing machines that don’t do critical thinking.”
“Veterans: it’s interesting because it’s a tough community. We don’t listen to advertising or bullshit or anything; it needs to come from another vet for anything to have credibility. So you know, a Marcus Luttrell or a me or a JT looking a bro or a sister in the eye and going: ‘Hey man, this is what happened to me.’ Even in the back of their mind, if they’re like, ‘What the? That’s insane,’ there’s still a lot more of: ‘I trust this person. They would not steer me wrong.’”
A collection of interviews, peer-reviewed research, and personal story; the book dives deep into the mind-body connection, how to become more embodied, and our need for social connection – which factors into mental and physical health far more than most of us realize. The nod to Michael Pollan’s book is also a challenge: Have we been focusing too much on our minds and now it’s time to pay more attention to our bodies? How much of the benefit of psychedelic experiences is related to truly experiencing our bodies?
She discusses:
How neuroscience is starting to look more at brain-body interactions, and the psychedelic space’s growing interest in somatics
The minimal and narrative selves: Do psychedelics make the minimal self traverse over the narrative self?
Flexible switching and applying interoception to a social context
Her concept of a ‘possibility space’ and new ways of perceiving
The benefit of adding embodiment practices to psychedelic assisted therapy – especially during preparation and integration
and more!
Notable Quotes
“I think people are familiar with the ways in which different compounds can influence the bodily self, so to speak. And it’s a really interesting idea that that, in and of itself (the modulation of your body or your experience of your body or how the body is represented by the brain): if that maps onto therapeutic outcomes, if that’s part of what’s so beneficial about these compounds – not just changing neural pathways in the brain, but actually giving you a different experience of yourself as an embodied organism in the world – I think this is a really interesting area to look into.”
“The minimal self is kind of just your basic feeling of being in a body, not necessarily tied to your identity. And the narrative self is like the story you tell yourself: who you are when you wake up in the morning, all of your memories, and kind of your life story. And it seems that there’s something going on with psychedelics where the minimal self: its influence sort of traverses over the narrative self, and we get an opportunity to be re-embodied in a way.”
“I don’t see a separation between a place of calmness within my body and the peace of the natural world. It’s the same quality to me. So if I’m standing, looking up at the stars at night in some beautiful remote place, that resonates inside me because it’s the same quality, if that makes sense. I feel it in my body so profoundly because it’s a reminder that my body is part of this greater profound stillness.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Steve Rio: psychedelic guide, performance and transformation coach, musician, and co-founder of Enfold, a retreat center in BC, Canada.
While Enfold caters each experience to each client, they largely work with 5-MeO-DMT (which is unregulated in Canada); partly because of its power, and partly because Rio realized how much was missing in terms of safety and process when using the substance. They are trying to fill in the gaps, working with the University Health Network Centre for Mental Health to analyze measurements of mindfulness, DAS tests, the Brief Inventory of Thriving survey, and language used when describing experiences to collect as much qualitative data as possible. He discusses their screening process, why they work with synthetic 5-MeO-DMT, why they encourage everyone to go to a group session, and how 5-MeO seems to bypass psychological processes and largely be related to somatic release.
He talks about:
The power of 5-MeO and being humble and honest with yourself: Are you stable enough to handle the dysregulation?
5-MeO bad actors and ‘Drive-by 5’ people who show up, do the drug, and leave
The plight of Sonoran Dessert toads and the need for more data around their declining populations
How 5-MeO seems to connect people with a higher power, and the need for the experiencer to find their own context for it
The importance of creating a clean and open container for spirituality and meeting the client where they are
and more!
Notable Quotes
“I think inserting any type of dogma is not really helpful in taking people through a psychedelic experience. I think there are some core basic principles around love, around compassion, around forgiveness, that I think everyone can agree with, but I think beyond that, it’s important for everybody to be able to contextualize their experience in the framing that feels right to them. …We try and create the clearest and simplest container for spirituality that allows for the depth of spirituality, but doesn’t necessarily try and say spirituality is one thing or another, because frankly, that’s a very personal choice.”
“These toads have quickly become close to extinct. And the whole region is in turmoil because of people coming to harvest toads. There’s cartel activities. I think there’s human safety risks, I think there’s animal safety risks. And once you work with synthetic, you realize that there’s so little difference between Bufo Alvarius and synthetic that it makes no sense to be working on healing, transformation, and consciousness expansion at the expense of this beautiful animal.”
“The more people can open up in a group setting, I think that’s an incredibly healing practice – to be able to be vulnerable, to be able to be heard, to hear other people’s stories and realize you’re not alone. To hear yourself in others is really powerful. I think, ultimately, the deepest healing does happen in community.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Ayize Jama-Everett: author, educator, filmmaker, and therapist with a long history of work in substance use and mental health services.
When Jama-Everett was last on the show, “A Table of Our Own” – a film focusing on healing, psychedelics, and bonds within the Black community – was still in its infancy. It’s now complete, and he and others behind the film are touring with it, with showings coming up in Detroit, LA, and Boston. A free follow-up discussion hosted by CIIS’ Center for Psychedelic Therapies and Research is happening Feb. 15, and, from February 15-16 only, the film is available to rent online.
He gives his full origin story: growing up around substance use, how he got into therapy and healing people through journeys, how “A Table of Our Own” came about, and how it was influenced by mushrooms. Then he discusses a lot more, with a much-needed critical eye:
His experiences with some notorious bad actors in the facilitation space
Decriminalization and how we celebrate small wins while ignoring steps back
Drug exceptionalism, the Drug War, and the demonization of crack
Power dynamics and the dangerous concept of letting go
Why the Black community is so skeptical of psychedelics
And he talks about why it’s so important to meet people where they are – that what works for one person or one community won’t necessarily work for another, and the above-ground, corporatized, overly medicalized model will never work for everyone.
Notable Quotes
“I’m about to crawl back underground after this, I think. …This above ground shit is, by and large, for the birds. …There’s so many people now doing psychedelics and stuff, right? I would assume, given the promises, that there’d be more ethical people out there. There’d be more people with less ego. There’d be more women in charge, there’d be more queer people in charge, there’d be more people of color in charge. But it just seems like the same white corporate dudes. It’s like they’re talking about an app. …I want to just be of service to the people that need it and not deal with the rest of this bullshit.”
“The whole decrim thing in general: I feel like when decrim isn’t married with all substance use, then I don’t know what the hell we’re talking about.”
“When we talk about access, we’re talking about insurance. Dude, I barely have insurance. Insurance reimbursement? You want a revolution and you start with insurance reimbursement? What? How does that make any [sense]? Was Martin Luther King marching across that bridge in Selma, being like, ‘We are going to have insurance reimbursement for [everyone]?’ No. That is not where you meet people. That is the last fucking thing. That is the blip at the end. People are dying. People are killing themselves. …People who are seriously struggling don’t give a fuck about insurance.”
“You’re sitting here, taking all of this stuff and you’re putting it in the context of pathology: Something has to be wrong in order for you to take this, so that it can be corrected. Actually, maybe things are alright, and this is the way of joining.”
He tells his story of growing up in a house where academics like John Mack and Carl Sagan regularly smoked cannabis, and being inspired by the groundbreaking books of his father, Lester Grinspoon. An outspoken advocate for drug policy reform and embracing different, non-AA paths to recovery, he talks about how he got there: his opiate addiction, fall from medicine, subsequent return, and learning just how deep the stigma against drugs goes, and how much the medical establishment is another arm of the Drug War. Seeing Through the Smoke aims to tell the truth about cannabis, especially on benefits and real and debunked harms. How can we get more physicians and lawmakers on our side if all they know is propaganda?
He discusses:
-The challenge in speaking honestly with physicians about drug use
-Why physicians are in support of researching psychedelics but not cannabis
-Stigmatized language and Drug War vibes in medical software
-The truth about cannabis, schizophrenia, and the risk of drug-induced psychosis
-Portugal and the ‘Rat Park’ model
-The importance of listening to what patients are saying – especially when we don’t have enough good data
and more!
Notable Quotes
“My dad got John Mack and Carl Sagan together so that Carl can convince John that UFOs aren’t actually real. And apparently, it got very heated, and John Mack yelled at Carl Sagan: ‘You’re being too cartesian!’ So I had a very weird childhood. I mean, all these people were smoking pot frequently in my house when I was growing up, and I grew to associate cannabis with intellectual discussion and very motivated people. I had a very different experience with it than I think it’s fair to say most people did.”
“Back then, the psychiatrists were all completely against psychedelics and people were not at all in favor of medical cannabis. I did my senior presentation as a resident on medical cannabis in the year 2000 (23 years ago), and everybody thought I was so eccentric. And they thought that this was the latest fad, like beta carotene or Omega-3 whatever. And now it’s fun because the same doctors who thought I was eccentric are referring patients to me.”
“94% of Americans support legal access to medical cannabis at this point. …Who’s against medical marijuana? I mean, come on, someone’s dying of cancer; give them some medical marijuana. And again, the AMA still puts it in derogatory quotation marks. So does the American Psychiatric Association. They put ‘medical marijuana’ in these derogatory quotation marks, like, ‘This is just something that only an ignorant patient would believe.’ …I wish they’d just have a little bit more humility and a little bit of interest in rethinking their positions.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Kate Pate: Ph.D. neurophysiologist; Founder and CEO of Coruna Medical; founding board member of the Psychedelic Medicine Association; and Founder of The Way Back, a company that will provide education and coaching services related to military, veteran, and first responder health – often in wilderness settings.
She talks about her introduction to psychedelics through the Heroic Hearts Project, where she later served as an integration coach and director of research, looking at psilocybin for traumatic brain injury symptoms, and how the gut microbiome changes after ingesting ayahuasca. She points out that gut health hasn’t been a focus of research, but it’s now emerging as a key indicator of physical and mental health. So, how do psychedelics, particularly plant-based ones, come into play? Are the long term shifts after an experience related to a change in the bacteria inside of us?
She breaks down what a microbiome is and how it changes based on diet; how inflammation is created and the inflammatory cascade that happens after a head injury; how toxins create a stress response similar to an allergic reaction; the frustrations of vets and the limited resources of the VA; the commonality of substance and alcohol use disorders in people coming home from service; the many nonprofits she’s worked with; and how important it is to increase science funding from the government.
Notable Quotes
“There’s a very clear shift in the microbiome population in the individuals who consumed ayahuasca, and it seems to be correlated with the improvements seen afterwards. …I do think that, especially with the psychedelics that are ingested and that come from plants, really, there’s a direct impact on the gut, and I think that can be really beneficial. …There’s an experience that lasts a certain period of time, but there are these long-term changes that persist. And what’s mediating that? Is it just the psychological experience, the spiritual experience? Is it physiology? Are we talking about shifts in the gut or other things controlling inflammation? My suspicion is that it’s all of the above, but we can’t negate the physiological component.”
“Gut health and the GI system used to be sort of like this thing that nobody really cared about. It was not the sexy, fun topic. It was sort of an afterthought of like, ‘It digests your food, that’s all it does.’ And now, it’s the star of the show. I mean, there’s so much to understand and learn there that regulates everything about our physical and mental health, that I think it’s really the target of research in the future.”
“If you eat a Western diet and you drink a lot of alcohol, you’re likely going to have the type of bacteria that colonize the gut that thrive in those kind of conditions, which are more pro-inflammatory. So not only can the bacteria themselves signal the immune system directly, but the metabolites that they’re producing can be very inflammatory and toxic. And that can cause leaky gut, it can influence our nervous system, it can influence our immune system. And all of that can affect, ultimately, mental health, because mental health; all these anxiety and depression-like symptoms and disorders are very highly correlated with inflammatory conditions.”
In this episode, Joe speaks with Paul F. Austin: Founder & CEO of Third Wave, Founder of Psychedelic Coaching Institute, and host of Third Wave’s The Psychedelic Podcast.
Recorded in-person at this year’s reMind conference, this episode – a shared release with Third Wave – is a rare glimpse into the inner workings of both Psychedelics Today and Third Wave, with Joe and Paul reconnecting after early podcast appearances and interviewing each other about where they’ve come from and where they’re going now that they’re so many years into this. Paul breaks down Third Wave’s history and new coaching training program, and Joe discusses Vital: Why he invested in Vital over an investment raise, what we’ve learned from the first two cohorts, how we’ve handled scholarships, and why sometimes losing money can be worth it if it’s for the greater good.
They talk about the challenge of keeping the lights on while trying to create something new; the balance of running a media company while building out an educational platform; the importance of staying focused and ignoring the noise; the relationship-building they’ve seen from their students; why we need to welcome the corporate types we may be inclined to dismiss; and why seeding good actors in as many roles and communities as possible is vital to the growth of psychedelics.
Notable Quotes
“What I find time and time again, is people need way less information than they think they need. They need way more courage and just a willingness to go out and make stuff happen. And so a lot of the relationships that are then formed in these cohorts that we have; people will then go out and start to collaborate and do things together out in the real world. They’ll start retreats together. And it’s fantastic.”
“The North Star of the program or the ethos or focus is: Inner transformation leads to external mastery. And what that means is: We can give you all the theory, we can teach you what we call the five key elements (assessment, prep, experience, integration, and microdosing), we can teach you different models, different frameworks; but if you don’t actually walk the path yourself, then you aren’t really being of full service to the clients you want to potentially work with.”
“There’s no prescription, right? We often want a prescription, just: ‘Tell me what to do; what’s the cookie cutter model? If I have a client, just give me– I want to do this, this, and this, and I’m good?” I’m like: No. You’ve got to learn yourself. You’ve got to know the different aspects and elements, but at the end of the day, this has to be yours – and only yours, and fully yours, because that’s the only way to really be a great practitioner or facilitator. There are no cookie cutter models when it comes to psychedelics.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Ryan Latreille: Founder of Hearthstone Collective, which sells functional mushrooms and low-dose kanna designed for microdosing; and Kanna Extract Co., which is focused on offering high-potency kanna extracts more for ceremonial and recreational use.
He talks about how he found his way to kanna; his first psychedelic experience (kanna mixed with MDMA); how he worked with a Koi tribal leader to find high-alkaloid kanna; how they created the strain they use; and why so many people are interested in kanna and more people should try it, as he believes it’s not only a natural alternative to other substances and alcohol, but also a great entry point for people looking to experiment with microdosing.
If you want to learn a lot about kanna, this is the episode for you, as it is all discussed: How dosing should be done depending on what you’re looking for; whether or not it’s fair to say kanna is ‘MDMA-lite’; Indigenous history of usage; drug interactions and safety; the journey from seed to harvest; a breakdown of different grades of kanna; how the ratio of different alkaloids creates different experiences; and what could be possible by combining different alkaloids, different strains, and by pairing with different substances.
Notable Quotes
“When you take it, it is stimulating the release of more dopamine, more norepinephrine, more serotonin. And that on its own is going to at least contribute in part to this euphoric, empathogenic feeling that people have when they take it. So I don’t know if it’s fair to say that it’s like MDMA-lite. It definitely is an empathogen, you definitely feel a heart-opening, but it is, I would say, distinctly different.”
“A lot of people are really liking this as an alternative to alcohol; something that’s healthier when you are in a social, festive environment, and you want to feel more open, more connected, more happy and free. This is, I think, a really great alternative for people than other compounds that tend to not leave you feeling so good the next day.”
“Kanna is a very special plant. I mean, there’s 28 known alkaloids at this point, each that have distinct effects on the central nervous system. And with the right chemist, you can make really, really cool extracts with it.”
In this episode, Kyle interviews Emma Knighton: Somatic trauma therapist, Vital instructor, and psychedelic integration therapist focusing on consciousness exploration, complex PTSD from childhood abuse, and queer identity development.
This episode is a bit of a masterclass on consent and boundaries within the client/practitioner relationship. She discusses power dynamics: how conflicts arise due to the breaking of established boundaries; safety, and embracing the idea of creating a container that is ‘safe enough’ to go into places that feel unsafe; and the importance of maintaining agreed-upon boundaries no matter how much the client may want to break them. They discuss ways to fulfill the need for touch when touch was not agreed upon, and the concept of practicing touch interactions before the experience – that playing out possible scenarios will create a somatic map so bodies remember what it feels like to be near each other while one body is deep in an experience.
And she talks about much more: What she’s learned from the kink and sex work community and their similarities with the psychedelic world; ways to handle consent in group settings; the clash between giving people agency but needing to step in and protect them; restorative justice models and how they could be used in a much-needed psychedelic practitioner accountability system; the need for practitioners to continue doing their own work; and how part of true consent is being honest about one’s own limitations or conflicts as a practitioner.
Notable Quotes
“We live in a compliance culture, not in a consent culture. So most of us have not actually learned what it feels like to be really attuned to consent in our bodies.”
“I don’t say, ‘This space is safe,’ I say, ‘We’re going to make this space safe enough’ – safe enough to do the thing, whatever the thing is. Safe enough to consent to the risk that is present. I don’t actually think that ‘safe, period’ exists for anybody anywhere. So it’s more about: What does ‘safe enough’ mean for each person? And that’s facilitators and clients, because facilitators: We have our own boundaries. And if we’re not attending to our boundaries and if we step over one of our boundaries in service of somebody else, that container is now out of consent, because we’ve crossed a boundary that we have. So we have to think about: What is safe enough for me to be in this setting and then, what does safe enough look like for the person or people I’m working with? And how do we create that?”
“I think part of the consent process and part of being an ethical and accountable practitioner is being really honest around: What do I know, what do I not know, and what do I not know that I don’t know?”
In this episode, Joe interviews Erik Vaughan: Co-Founder and Manager of Epiphany Mushroom, a mushroom and mental health company based in Akron, Ohio.
Epiphany mushrooms will initially be selling Lion’s Mane, Reishi, and Cordyceps, and they plan to expand into more functional mushrooms while also pursuing a license to operate healing centers in Colorado. Vaughan was involved in changing Colorado’s psilocybin legislation after lobbying to add a section that allows product testing labs to register and charge for their services – while voluntary and complementary to required testing, it allows growers to have an unlimited amount of product for testing purposes; adds an extra step in keeping the grower and lab in compliance with state law; and, as more states work on their own legislation, highlights the need for potency testing to let customers know exactly what they’re ingesting.
He discusses changing attitudes and how Michigan can lead the way for the midwest; why he’s excited about Colorado and what they got right; the enthusiasm of the mycology crowd; Rick Perry’s speech at Psychedelic Science 2023; the iron law of prohibition and mushroom products sold in Ohio; and the incredible inefficiency of the drug war (when viewed like it was not designed to do exactly what it’s doing).
Notable Quotes
“This is how we get to maximum access. There’s a lot of the population that wants a regulated, licensed program. But also, that is going to price out a lot of the population. And so, having access to all of these different delivery methods, all of these different programs, [all of the ways] you can do it, all of the different ranges of costs: I think this is how you allow responsible access to the most amount of people with the least amount of damage.”
“It’s just such an incredible inefficiency. We’re losing that war on every metric, and how is that good for anyone? …You don’t even have to care about the good that it does for the individual, you can just look at it purely from an economic standpoint: it creates this untaxed black market that has dangerous products. And how’s it going? That, again, is what excites me to see; that in 50 years, we’re going to look back and say, ‘Ok. Hey, we made it through that.’”
In this episode, Joe interviews Christine Calvert: Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor and certified Holotropic Breathwork® facilitator.
She talks about how addiction led her to breathwork, how breathwork has helped her over the years, how breathwork can be a compliment to other self-work, and how becoming comfortable with breathwork first could be a very important stepping stone towards better understanding the psychedelic experience. She talks about how years of breathwork helped her navigate complicated states of consciousness, and the incredible benefit of learning to trust our body’s capacity to heal itself.
She discusses using bodywork in sessions and the importance of having the experiencer be the one who requests it; how much a facilitator’s past relationship with touch affects how they use touch; the risk in meditation vs. the safety of breathwork; the concept of learning self-awareness; how profound it is to be witnessed in breathwork’s dyad model; and why researching and creating guidelines for this kind of work seems impossible.
Notable Quotes
“One of the things I love so much about breathwork vs. psychedelics is that it is endogenous medicine; this is coming from within me. And as somebody who had experienced the world in [a way that] felt like I really was surrounded in a culture and a society that was incredibly disempowering – to have a model that turns you back inside yourself over and over again is a true gift and an act of radical self-empowerment.”
“Obviously in counseling we get witnessed, but there is something really profound about the witnessing in the dyad setup model of holotropic breathwork where [we’re] being witnessed by somebody, and their job is only to do that: to literally sit [and] accompany me as I go internal. And then there’s just an immense amount of support. So for these parts that really didn’t have support and are holding a lot of the trauma of omission (the things we needed that we didn’t get); it’s incredibly powerful and poignant to have this kind of relational field surrounding us through that while that material is moving through us.”
“I feel like if we could do a stepping stone program, breathwork would be the first one, because I think if we can’t access and understand what and who we are with our own endogenous medicine; as explorers and facilitators or practitioners, I think we’re missing something.”
In this episode, recorded in-person at the recent reMind conference, Joe interviews Kaci Hohmann and Dave Kopilak: business attorneys at Emerge Law Group and co-chairs of Emerge’s psychedelics practice group. Hohmann also serves as Chair of the Oregon State Bar’s Cannabis and Psychedelics Law Section.
They were both drafters of Oregon Measure 109 (with Kopilak as the primary drafter), so this episode goes deep into the details, legalities, and possibilities behind Measure 109. What licenses are involved? What does a business heading to Oregon need to prepare for? What do they think the feds will do and how does that relate to cannabis’ Cole Memorandum? What is tax code 280E and how can its effects be minimized? What do they see the future looking like?
They discuss what they do for clients at Emerge Law Group; the differences between the cannabis and psychedelics industries; why service centers are likely more important than the products; and how the psilocybin service center experience is more like a relationship with clients than anything in the cannabis world, which makes everything much more complicated – but also much safer.
Joe also highlights some recent news, including MAPS PBC rebranding to Lykos Therapeutics, symptoms from traumatic brain injuries being improved by the combination of ibogaine and magnesium, and more!
Notable Quotes
“Cannabis growers have different philosophies on indoor/outdoor, all kinds of stuff that a discerning customer may or may not be interested in. So I think that some facilitators, just like service centers, can have any type of look and feel they want. Facilitators can have their own style of facilitation, which could range from anything: Indigenous/shamanistic or not, or health-oriented or something. And the ceremony part of it could be meaningful to folks or maybe not (like ‘here, take a capsule,’ you know). It sort of depends on a lot of things, but I think that’s interesting because it allows the facilitators to kind of mold their own ways of doing things and the service centers to mold their way of doing things. And you mix them all together and every experience might be unique.” -Dave
“I think there’s a lot of negative talk around Oregon’s program, or misconceptions. And I think some are valid, but overall, I think that things are going to trend in a positive direction, and I think as the program matures, we’re going to see a real healthy, sustainable program in Oregon. So I’m excited about the future, and I really enjoy all the clients that we work with. Everyone seems to be in it for great reasons. And I think that’s awesome, as an attorney, to be able to represent businesses who are doing something right in the world.” -Kaci
“I’m really hoping that this is a new industry that can, years from now, just be sustainable, be profitable for folks. So I want folks to stay in business. That’s why I want folks to go in with good business plans, good legal advice, good CPA advice, good business advice, know what they’re doing, play defense a little bit, not get sued (that’s a big one), get insurance when it’s available, and set a good example for other states. And I think if it proliferates like cannabis [did], that’s a great, great thing for the country. And I think it will. So every state will do things a little differently, there’s always things that can be improved under any system, but it’s all an evolution. We’re at the beginning stages, we just have to keep going and surviving.” -Dave
In this episode, Joe interviews Mike Margolies: community catalyst; conversation creator; Founder of Psychedelic Seminars; and Co-Founder and Co-Steward of the Global Psychedelic Society.
The Global Psychedelic Society was created for all of the different psychedelic societies that have sprung up over the world to connect, share resources and information with each other, and be housed in a central hub so people can find them more easily. He talks about Frederic Laloux’s book, Reinventing Organizations, and modeling the GPS around the “Teal” concept of organization, where employees are encouraged to show up as their true, honest, and most powerful selves; where it’s more about relationships than hierarchy; and more about embracing a mycelial – and psychedelic – way of thinking and interacting with each other. He breaks down how this way of thinking has progressed from the earliest ways of organizing, and discusses its three main principles of self-governance, wholeness, and evolutionary purpose.
He then talks about the Boom Festival: its “Liminal Village,” its inventive Kosmicare harm reduction program, and how drugs are not as decriminalized as people think in Portugal; and Burning Man: how it all came together for him this year when he didn’t even want to go, his experiences with the rain and a friend’s dreams warning of floods, what he learned from the ghost of a lost friend, and how that resulted in the concept of Batman doing a striptease to Seal’s “Kiss From a Rose.” Is the Joker simply a manifestation of Batman’s shadow material and his desire to be a hero? Yea, this one gets weird…
Notable Quotes
“It’s great that we’re here and we’re advocating for psychedelics and we’re building these psychedelic organizations, but if we’re here advocating for psychedelics and psychedelic research and policy and community, how do we actually embody that in our day-to-day life, in our work life? What does it mean to be psychedelic?”
“The key here is it’s not about the power dynamics, it’s about relationships. So if you don’t take someone’s advice seriously, they’re not going to take your advice seriously. So it’s less based on someone [having] power over someone and the hierarchy; it’s more relational. And that’s what it’s based on. In this kind of organization, you’re talking about a network of relationships. …Teal is not about everyone having equal power, it is about everyone being fully powerful.”
“If our intention is we want to help people not get hurt by drugs, then let’s take action to help people reduce the risk of drugs. Clearly, law enforcement [and] adding harm is not preventing harm.”
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, David interviews Christine Caldwell: graduate of the first cohort of Vital and Founder of End of Life Psychedelic Care (EOLPC); and Mary Telliano: end-of-life coach, psychedelic facilitator, and Founder of The Anam Cara Academy, which trains people in the art of end-of-life coaching.
Whether we’re comfortable with it or not, we’re all going to die. And research shows that psychedelic experiences can help tremendously with the anxiety and depression that surround that inevitable transition between realms. Caldwell and Telliano discuss the role of a death doula; how they found their way into end-of-life care; why the West’s relationship with death changed during the Civil War; the role of families in the process; the legality of providing end-of-life psychedelics and the complications that arise when people are unable to leave their homes; and how different substances can be used based on each person’s abilities and comfort level.
They talk about why the mystical experience of psychedelics can be so helpful during this process (and how the placebo effect can be a very real factor); tell a few stories of amazing things they’ve witnessed while doing this work; and drive the point home of how important it is for us to reintegrate death as a natural part of life – to have rites of passage around death, to learn from death, and, much like we need to remember our inner healing capacity, realize that we all have the capacity to play the role of a death doula for someone else.
Notable Quotes
“We are on the forefront of people calling back in sacredness, calling back in those pieces that we’ve forgotten. I was about to say ‘missing’ and I’m really trying to reframe that linguistic and say ‘forgotten’ because it’s never gone away; we’re just really remembering this piece and this emphasis on how important it is to honor the transitions as a community, as a whole. And what it does for me on a personal level as a death doula, how it’s changed me by witnessing so many people dying, is that I’ve witnessed my death over and over and over and over again through these people. And I’ve gotten to kind of really sit and be comfortable in a space that I think a lot of people shy away from. And being in the room with somebody who is in transition is one of the biggest gifts you can get because you carry that with you now. And so, the work of a doula is also in service to ourselves.” -Mary
“It’s the mystical experience. I just firmly believe that, because we’re working with people who have an openness, a receptivity to looking at spirituality in terms of coming to terms with their death and dying, and looking into whether or not there is a greater consciousness, which of course we know there is. And psychedelics are the portal to that greater consciousness.” -Christine
“The technology of psychedelics helps us transcend beyond our body. And if we can make meaning outside of ourselves, things become a little bit more [navigable] because now, we have enough inside of us to remember that there’s something that happens outside of us, and these two worlds start to communicate and inform each other.” -Mary
In this episode, we toast to the beginning of an exciting and hopefully groundbreaking 2024 by switching things up a bit. Christopher Koddermann, Co-Founder and Chair of Board of the International Therapeutic Psilocybin Rescheduling Initiative (ITPRI) will be conducting some interviews for PT, and in this episode, he does his first – with our Co-Founders, Joe Moore and Kyle Buller.
Kyle tells the story of his fateful New Years Eve snowboarding trip that resulted in a near death experience and a complete change in his life’s trajectory, and Joe discusses his more academic roots and how he and Kyle were united through their shared passion for the work of Stan Grof, holotropic breathwork, and transpersonal psychology. Psychedelics Today was created largely with no aims other than to promote transpersonal psychology and archive the best insights from their mentors, but has obviously turned into so much more, mostly from the simple goal of trying to spread the word through interesting conversations.
They talk about the growth of PT; how they got involved in education; the harms of the drug war; why decriminalization isn’t enough; where they see ‘the psychedelic renaissance’ going; what has surprised them the most in the last few years; and what we’re most proud of: Vital – how it came to be created, what’s involved, the benefits of the retreats, the self-discovery they’ve witnessed, and what they’ve learned through two successful cohorts.
The next edition of Vital begins on January 23, and we’ve extended applications until January 14, so if you’ve been curious if Vital is the answer you’ve been looking for, now is the time to act!
Notable Quotes
“This voice kind of came over me and said, ‘You’re going home. You’re going back to the stars where we all come from and this physical life’s going to cease to exist, but you’ll continue onward, and this is just a transition. And the more that you struggle with this transition, the harder it’s going to be. So the more that you can relax into it, the easier the transition will be.’ And I just really kind of relaxed into it, and there was a lot of beauty and bliss and love, and I just remember going, ‘I’m going home. I’m going home. This is what we all wait for.’ And the doctors are yelling at me to stay awake.” -Kyle
“We chatted and we were just like, ‘How do we get this transpersonal topic to be more discussed?’ Because to us, a huge portion of the human experience was getting washed away by super dry science, and we thought it was really important to bring the human elements back in. Human experience does matter.” -Joe
“A lot of our students are taking pause to say, ‘Oh, I need to do a lot more inner work and a lot more self-discovery before I just jump in and start doing facilitation work.’ And I love that as a result. It’s maybe not what they expected coming in, but self-discovery just unfolds and [they say], ‘Okay, I need to really figure out what’s going on a little bit more for me and how I want to show up in this really strange space that is psychedelics.’ And I really love that. That’s probably not the best sales pitch, but it’s true. We want people to really do self-discovery, regardless of how that shows up for them.” -Joe
In this episode, Kyle interviews Kayse Gehret, the Founder of Microdosing for Healing, an international virtual community and coaching program supporting microdosing practice.
She tells the story of embracing microdosing and her grand mal seizure disorder going away, and how the inability to touch people during the pandemic led to the creation of Microdosing for Healing. She breaks down the details of the program, challenges she’s seen, and the importance of using every effective modality possible to align with each person’s individual experience. The next 6-Week Immersion Group course begins January 26.
She talks about how accessing the body is usually the best entry point to healing; how effective journaling and other personal development practices are to recognize change (especially with how subtle microdosing can be); the efficacy of group process; how physicians are beginning to see the power in community and connection; concerns over the “jump in the deep end” attitude of many people leading to destabilizing experiences; how regular check-ins are important to keep people connected to their original intention; and the idea that people are striving for an unattainable state of perfection – that our goal should be a constant state of improvement and aligning ourselves to who we are meant to be – and microdosing until we don’t need to microdose anymore.
Notable Quotes
“I grew up with a grand mal seizure disorder, so I had always, growing up, shied away from anything that would destabilize my brain more than it already was doing on its own. So doing high dose or experimenting with drugs was never appealing to me and kind of a bit scary to me. But when I was introduced to the concept of microdosing, there was something that just was like ding! And the idea that I could do something that felt more like a natural supplementation, a spiritual vitamin if you will, over time, as kind of an expansiveness [tool] and a healing modality – not anticipating at all it would have the effect that it it did end up happening for me – but that sounded more appealing than high dose work at the time. So I started microdosing and among other things, my seizure disorder disappeared completely, immediately upon practicing.”
“Somatics and body work is fundamental, I think, to our healing, especially where we are in society right now. I think accessing the body is, for many people, the best first access point to their own healing.”
“I really feel like the majority of the public, especially now that it’s mainstream, most people (and again, this is just my opinion) are not resourced and resilient and in a place where going straight to a high dose experience is going to best serve them. And what we have witnessed loud and clear over the last three years is when people take the time to lay the foundation and really apprentice themselves to their practice – incorporate breathwork, body work, other healing modalities first – and they lay a foundation of trust with themselves and the medicine; then they move into higher dose work with a guide and facilitator, it is a completely different experience.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Mike Finoia: standup comedian, Producer for the hit show, “Impractical Jokers,” and co-host of the Comes a Time Podcast with Dead & Company bassist, Oteil Burbridge. His new Special, “Don’t Let Me Down,” is out now.
He talks about his early days of recreational drug use at jam band shows; a powerful psilocybin experience; passing out before his first ketamine experience and how his commitment has made subsequent experiences much smoother; and how his continued work has allowed him to focus on what’s truly important. He’s seen positive results from talking about his ketamine-assisted psychotherapy experiences on stage, and he’s working on new material that will be much more focused on not just psychedelics, but the therapy, self-work, and growth he’s gone through in his journey.
He also discusses the influence of other comedians; the bioavailability in different ketamine methods; how psychedelics are like a performance-enhancing drug; the importance of having a working, attainable idea of success and not getting caught up in other people’s lives; the benefit of asking people in the audience to raise their hands if they’ve done psychedelics; and the importance of recognizing that psychedelics are absolutely not for everyone – at least if they’re not ready.
Notable Quotes
“It’s interesting because I’m trying to work out the material and figure out what’s funny, but also, some of the stuff I’m saying that’s from my gut is getting laughter and applause, and also, people are coming up afterwards and they’re like, ‘That’s really awesome that you’re talking about this.’ …I have to pay attention to that.”
“A comic, just like anything else really – you know, a podcaster, an entrepreneur, a businessman, whatever – you’re 10 different things. You’re the Director of social media, you’re the Director of advertising and marketing and promotions. You have your art and you have the thing you like to do, but then there’s a hundred other gigs that come with it, and you have to kind of stay on top of all those things. And that can get extremely overwhelming. And if you already have that imposter voice or that critic that’s beating the hell out of you all the time, it’s more ammo or more fuel for their fire. So to me, psychedelics have been– It’s almost like a vacation. It’s like a way to shut that crap off and get to what really matters.”
“When you have the anxieties and the depressions and the imposter syndrome, things like that; sometimes the most psychedelic part of a psychedelic experience is the absence of the bullshit, where it’s just: you get down to being a living being and you’re out of your own way. And that, to me, is the most valuable part.”
In this episode, Joe and Kyle are honored to welcome back Stanislav and Brigitte Grof: Stan being the person who kickstarted their interest in non-ordinary states of consciousness, breathwork, and this podcast; and Brigitte: his other half, co-creator of Grof® Legacy Training, and support system (and often, voice) since his stroke a few years back.
They discuss the recently released Stanislav Grof, LSD Pioneer: From Pharmacology to Archetypes, which Brigitte assembled in honor of Stan’s 90th birthday. It celebrates his life’s work in pioneering research into non-ordinary states of consciousness and transpersonal psychology, and features an extended interview with Stan; testimonials from a number of legends in the psychedelic and psychological fields like Jack Kornfield, Rupert Sheldrake, Richard Tarnas, and Fritjof Capra; and a large photo album of rarely seen pictures, including Stan doing his first experiments with LSD.
And they talk about so much more: The evolution of LSD psychotherapy as Stan realized people’s experiences were coming from the psyche rather than any pharmacology; why he started practicing and teaching breathwork; Stan’s love of treasure hunts; how the perinatal matrices were born and how each corresponds to astrology and religious archetypes; why experience in breathwork can be so beneficial to better psychedelic experiences and facilitation; why integration is equally as important as the experience; and an argument to take archetypal astrology more seriously – that there is often a synchronicity that can’t be denied between these archetypes, events, and experiences.
Notable Quotes
“I was surprised that people were having very, very different experiences. And then when [they] had these substances repeatedly; then again, it was completely different. …So I realized that this had nothing to do with chemistry, this had nothing to do with pharmacology, and that it’s basically about the psyche.” -Stan
“I have to say I’m extremely grateful for the map that he found and he gave to all of us, especially in The Way of the Psychonaut, his life’s work, encyclopedia. All the knowledge is there. And when I go to these places myself and I get into the pits, I can, in the back of my head, remember, ‘Oh, this is what Stan was writing about, so it should be okay. I’m going to get out of this.’ So I think everybody who is doing these journeys should know about Stan’s findings. It’s just so mega helpful.” -Brigitte
“When you hear what people say later or you see the creativity and the power of energy that gets released, then the liberation, it’s so amazing, and so healing and very exciting. And the people sometimes say, ‘How do you live with all that screaming?’ And I said, ‘Well, it’s music in my ears, because so much of the suffering is silent. So when these things come out and they get expressed, they’re leaving the system and people get liberated. So once you understand that, then you’re good.’” -Brigitte
“When we do breathwork, then you add to it breathing, and actually, the intelligence; it brings its own thought. And then of course, bringing in LSD, psychedelics: it’s even further. But the idea is to always work with the psyche. You don’t need any specific tricks.” -Stan
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Johanna interviews Angie Leek, LMFT/LPC-S, SEP: Vital instructor, Founder of the Holos Foundation for Transpersonal Healing, and psychotherapist offering KAP through her private practice, Holos Counseling; and Justin LaPree: Vital graduate, decorated Marine, former firefighter, and Founder and President of Heroic Path to Light; a retreat center in Austin, Texas offering psychedelic-assisted therapy and community to veterans, first responders, and Gold/White Star families.
LaPree shares his personal journey of struggling to reintegrate into life after war and the daily traumas he lived as a firefighter leading to an eventual suicide attempt, and the healing he found when he rediscovered the community and purpose he had been longing for. And Leek tells her story of her spiritual emergency and the nonlinear path she found for coming to terms with her repressed trauma, further illustrating a common theme we see in this space of the wounded healer, and the challenge of taking care of yourself first in order to be able to heal others.
They discuss the importance of specialized communities for trauma healing; the need for a support system and the power of sharing experiences with others; how they both work with their clients, the idea of viewing preparation as “pre-integration”; why families and friends also need to be prepared; and how, if you feel like something needs to change or you’re in need of a community, maybe it all begins with you.
They also talk about how much they loved Vital and the impact it’s had on their life paths. The deadline for applications for the 2024 cohort of Vital is tomorrow, December 20, at midnight, so if you’re ready to take the leap, head to vitalpsychedelictraining.com to apply now!
Notable Quotes
“Coming together with small groups of people – …that’s really getting back to the roots. It’s getting back to the basics of civilizations. There’s just so much to be said there about coming together to support each other.” -Justin
“So many people that started doing psychedelics that I was working with either ended up divorced or having big breakups with friendships. It’s like when somebody in the system [changes], the system craves homeostasis. It’s like, ‘No, we don’t want to [change]. We liked how it was before; we don’t like this change.’ And so, either the relationship goes through this transformation that may be rocky, or it breaks. And so that’s a good thing to know going in. It’s actually sort of informed consent. It’s good to know your life might blow up after this in ways that you can’t even imagine.” -Angie
“I really want the entire community to be there for the shared experience of healing. I’s just as healing, if not more healing, for me to be able to facilitate these containers and be there with the individuals. That’s why [I], as the Founder and President, [am] at every retreat, because this is the medicine that I need without even taking the medicine. This is my medicine of community.” -Justin
In this episode, Joe interviews Mason Marks, MD, JD: drug policy analyst, writer, Professor at the Florida State University College of Law, and senior fellow and project lead of the Project on Psychedelics Law and Regulation (POPLAR) at the Petrie-Flom Center for Health Law Policy, Biotechnology, and Bioethics.
As somewhat of an expert on drug policy and FDA regulation, Marks discusses much of the current legal landscape: What was controversial and most interesting about the FDA’s recent guidance for researchers running clinical trials; how an amendment changed Colorado’s Natural Medicine Act and the odd vibe coming from the rule-making process (very private with canceled meetings and a notable lack of urgency); concerns over Oregon’s confusing program not being sustainable; and how Senate Bill 303 drastically changed confidentiality and how personal data would be collected in the state.
He also discusses the complications and ethics of end-of-life care and psychedelics; the theoretical heart valve risk from chronic use and ways we could research this; the challenge of informed consent; the legal risk of transactions involving people gifting illegal substances; the Gracias Foundation’s recent $16 million grant to Harvard and how people at Harvard feel about psychedelics; and more.
POPLAR, which was founded to essentially change laws around psychedelics, is hosting a conference on February 16 in Manhattan called “Drug Law for the 21st Century,” which will be looking back on 50 years of DEA drug policy and envisioning what could be different going forward.
Notable Quotes
“I love the law because it’s sort of the rules by which society functions, and I think that’s why law in psychedelics is so interesting. And that’s why we founded this project, POPLAR, in the first place, was that we saw that there were academic, medical programs popping up all over the world (so they’re focusing on clinical trials), but it’s really the law that is the bottleneck in a lot of the scientific progress. So there wasn’t anyone focusing on fully investigating that bottleneck: How do we actually change the law [and] open up the valve so that we can get more scientific research done?”
“If you look at the law and you look at the Oregon Health Authority’s rules to implement Measure 109, there’s no question: It’s a non-medical program. People hate it when I use this word, but it’s a supervised recreational program. …Whatever term you use to describe adult use cannabis, that’s really what Oregon is with the change that there is this supervision component, and it creates a lot of problems, to be honest. One of them is the incredible cost.”
“I think just having honest conversations is what it really comes down to, telling people that we don’t really know. ‘This mystical experience you might have: It could be a very important part of the therapeutic process or it might be kind of ancillary. We don’t really know.’ I think a lot of people do jump to conclusions, and being open-minded like you said and educating oneself [is important]. I’m constantly learning. You have to be about this. You could study for a lifetime.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Flor Bollini. Named “The Corporate Shaman” by Forbes Magazine, she is an entrepreneur, medicine woman, and the Founder and CEO of NANA Health.
NANA Health is a platform that provides best practices, educational content, and peer to peer support around a framework that is fully personalized, using what they call “psychedelic-initiated transformative medicine.” Inspired by feminine energy, African tradition, and Ayurveda, their concept is that if you can’t afford a luxurious retreat, what can you do at home? What are the lifetime practices and biohacking techniques that can enable your self-healing capabilities to take over, with or without any psychedelics? Is your trajectory reversible?
She talks about accepting her healing destiny and what she learned from several ayahuasca experiences across different countries; contrast therapy and the use of sweat lodges throughout history; how so many of our struggles come from repressing sexual energy; why 5-MeO-DMT is the best tool to treat the most complex issues; the concept of using 5-MeO as a Eucharist in church; why we need to connect with the divine; and why we need more spirit in Western medicine.
Notable Quotes
“I was a non-believer and I had no framework. …But then psychedelics screw that up. If you’re agnostic, then you have a psychedelic experience; well, it doesn’t matter what you believe or not believed before. Now, you had the experience and you know there’s something, but you don’t have a framework of how to bring it back, what just happened. And especially serving 5-MeO is very drastic. There is no God, then there is a God, [then] you are God in five minutes.”
“Don’t be our intermediary anymore. Let me communicate directly with [the] source, because that is how we’ve been designed to work. And when you took that away from us, it actually affected us enormously; first, because we lose our connection with nature, we lose our connection with ourselves, we lose our connection with one another, we don’t understand sexuality as a healing and spiritual practice. It’s portrayed more like being a pig. …All the most direct ways of connecting with [the] source have been demonized.”
“At some point, you don’t need the medicine anymore. At some point, it is your lifestyle practices that sustain your transformation.”
“Spirit is important, and spirit is something that doesn’t exist in Western medicine.”
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Johanna interviews Daan Keiman, MA: Buddhist, Psychedelic Chaplain, and Co-Founder of the psychedelic think-and-practice tank, Communitas Collective Foundation; Aura Ahuvia: Rabbi who served five years as President of the ALEPH (Alliance for Jewish Renewal) Board and is now the Founder of Psychedelic Rabbi; and Josh Harper: Consciousness Medicine Guide who works with Ligare, a Christian Psychedelic Society.
They dig deep into the intersection of psychedelics and spirituality, focusing largely on the concept of psychedelic chaplaincy: how they each define it and how spiritual caregivers are uniquely positioned to be of service to those coming out of powerful and unexplainable mystical experiences (whether they be psychedelic or not). They discuss why being grounded in a spiritual tradition is important, but how it’s often more important to be open to mystery and exploring that which is complex and difficult, even if that means someone questioning if their religion is truly right for them anymore.
Each tell their stories of struggling with and eventually embracing their religion and how psychedelics and spirituality became part of their lives, and discuss much more: Psychedelics in religious history and the slow embrace of mysticism in today’s renaissance; the importance of truly listening to individuals’ experiences and not dismissing life-changing experiences as ‘drug-induced’; how practice (no matter what kind) is a huge benefit of religion; and the need to eventually de-center psychedelics from the narrative – that the shared experience of coming together in community and asking big questions is where the healing truly lies.
Notable Quotes
“My approach personally to working with people outside of my Jewish tradition is to know that on the one hand, I am grounded in my own tradition, but on the other hand, I carry it lightly into that space because I’m aware that our connection in that moment is going to be: We are two fellow humans and there is no need for that which grounds me to be that which grounds somebody else.” -Aura
“The vocation of the church is to see people healed and whole, but it seems like the church is more interested in defending its own version of the truth than to see the healing and wholeness of people. And for any Christian Pastors or leaders out there who are listening to this, it’s very likely that you will have people in your congregations who are coming to you with these experiences, and you have the opportunity to listen to them, regardless of your own personal feelings of psychedelics. You have the opportunity to listen, to welcome them in. And I believe that the church, with that kind of openness, can be a great place for integration.” -Josh “I think it can become potentially harmful, especially in the long run, if we start to see these places where people can come kind of exist over time; if the only way we have access to this is because we’re going to take a psychedelic substance. And I think the sooner we de-center psychedelics, the less risk we have, thinking that it’s about the experiences, and the more we start to realize it’s about the relationships that we maintain. And it’s not about the shared religion, it’s not about the shared experience, it’s about the fact that, as humans, we come together and ask ourselves: What does it mean to be alive right now? And in asking it in a community, we’re also partly living that answer.” -Daan
In this episode, Kyle interviews John H. Buchanan, Ph.D.: certified Holotropic Breathwork practitioner; contributing co-editor for Rethinking Consciousness: Extraordinary Challenges for Contemporary Science; and author of the new book, Processing Reality: Finding Meaning in Death, Psychedelics, and Sobriety.
Recorded shortly after a week-long philosophy and breathwork conference which they both attended, they mostly dig into the challenging philosophical concepts of Alfred North Whitehead: how everything is made up of a feeling; how everything is relational and we all feel each other’s experiences; how Whitehead defined occasions and how moments of experience are accessing the totality of the past; and how neurology and the mind-brain interaction impacts human experience. This analysis leads to a lot of questions: Is the past constantly present, in that it is an active influencer on all our actions? When we relive a past event, where does that live in our minds vs. bodies? Are we tapping into a universal storehouse of past events, or are we tapping into past lives (or into others past lives)? When we sense that someone is looking at us, what is that?
He also discusses his realization that the experiential element of non-ordinary states of consciousness was the most important; his entry point into breathwork; why breathwork creates a perfect atmosphere for conversation; reincarnation and the idea of being reincarnated into other dimensions; the concept of objective immortality and how ripple effects from a single moment continue onward; and the fallacy of misplaced concreteness and psychoid experiences: Are they real beyond our psyche?
Notable Quotes
“One of the key moments for my studies was [when] I was tripping, walking through this room. Suddenly, I had this vision of three overlapping circles of psychology, philosophy, and religion, and in the middle was an experiential center that was all of them, where the experience of these questions and mysticism and psychological insight were sort of all flooding in there. And I thought: Wow, this is the insight people are talking about. I’ve got to find out what this is about.”
“Whitehead has a book called Religion in the Making and he says religious experience, a mystical experience is interesting and part of the picture, but you can’t build an entire religion or philosophy based on extraordinary experience of a few great men. But I think with psychedelics, opening up these realms to millions of people; it creates a much better foundation for doing something like that.”
“Everything’s alive, and I think we need to feel that again and to feel the depth dimensions that psychedelics reveal. …I think when we don’t feel the aliveness around us, we don’t feel alive.”
In this episode, David interviews Shauheen Etminan, Ph.D. and Jonathan Lu: Co-Founders of Magi Ancestral Supplements.
Through studying ancient Zoroastrian writings and 2,000 year-old Chinese texts in search of compounds and formulations forgotten by history, Etminan and Lu co-founded drug discovery company VCENNA in 2019 to use extraction technology to isolate these compounds. This led to an understanding of the health properties behind beta-carbolines, which led to their nootropic company, Magi Ancestral Supplements. They talk about the early days and experimenting on themselves, how beta-carbolines create dream-like states, and how their research sent each of them further into their own heritage, and asking themselves: How do we remember what our ancestors knew?
They discuss espand, haoma, Syrian rue, and how common Syrian rue is in both Iranian culture and psychedelic history; what is a drug vs. what is a supplement; common threads they’ve seen across different cultures and how we may be repeating some of their mistakes; Etminan’s recent ayahuasca experience with the Santo Daime church; and of course, some of Magi Ancestral Supplements’ products and their expected effects – from deep meditation to lucid dreaming to even mild hallucinations. You can get 10% off any product using code PT10 here.
Notable Quotes
“The journey started with basically experimenting with different alkaloid’s extracts. So we were able to extract these compounds from different plants. Specifically, the journey started with just doing some experimentation with psilocybin, looking into what are those alkaloids inside the psilocybin mushroom. And then basically, this story took us into our own heritage and trying to see what other plants are psychoactives but they’re less studied in the West.” -Shauheen
“This terminology you put between what is a supplement, what is a drug, what is food; even going back to what Andrew Weil talks about here, like, is caffeine a drug? Is nicotine a drug? …These words that we apply to what is a drug vs. what is a supplement are fairly arbitrary. We give the label of something as being a drug just because it’s gone through the medical establishment of a thousand people have tested it and based upon the evaluation of a guy wearing a white lab coat with a diploma on the wall, he said that more than 65% of them (or vs. those who were given a placebo) had a positive response, and therefore I can call it a drug now instead of a supplement and you can make a medical claim. But you know, the plants, the compounds: They don’t really care what we call them.” -Jon
“I am not very fascinated about psychedelics in general; I’m fascinated about the effect of psychedelics on human consciousness, because we are really behind our capacity, and I would love to see that we come together with good intention in a way that we can pave that way for fostering something that is serving everybody rather than just a group of people.” -Shauheen
In this episode, Kyle interviews Bessel van der Kolk, MD: pioneer clinician, researcher, and educator on traumatic stress; Founder of the Trauma Research Foundation; Professor of Psychiatry at Boston University Medical School; Principal Investigator of the Boston site of MAPS’ MDMA-assisted psychotherapy study; and author of the #1 New York Times Science best seller, The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Treatment of Trauma.
As of this recording, van der Kolk was publishing his last paper and closing down his laboratory, so he looks back on his past: being part of the group who put together the first PTSD diagnosis in the 80s; the early days of psychedelic research and how he discouraged Rick Doblin and Michael Mithoefer from pursuing MDMA research; how the DSM has no scientific validity and was never meant for the diagnosing it’s being used for; how science wasn’t seeing the whole picture and pushing us mindlessly from medication to medication; and how trauma research has evolved over the years as society learned more about how the mind actually works.
He discusses the struggle to validate “softer” sciences; the impracticality and price of the MAPS protocol and the need for more group and sitter/experiencer frameworks; the efficacy of psychodrama and how that plays out in group sessions; his interest in using the Rorschach test more; how rolfing helped him; the problem with diagnosis and people becoming their illnesses; bodywork, somatic literacy, and how disconnected most people are from their bodies; and how, in all the healing frameworks he’s explored, he has never seen anything work as profoundly as psychedelic-assisted therapy.
Notable Quotes
“I have quite a few friends who are sort of major scientists. And I asked my friends, ‘So, did you take acid also in college?’ All my friends said, ‘Yes, I did.’ And I say, ‘So, how do you think it affected you?’ And my friends generally say, ‘Well, I think it really accounts from my having become a good scientist, because I got to appreciate that the reality that I hold inside of myself is just a small fragment of the overall reality that is.’”
“It was really very gratifying for me to be part of a psychedelic team the past 10 years or so, where we got to see the astounding transformations that people go through on psychedelics – more than anything else that I’ve seen in my career, and I’ve studied many different methods. I’ve studied other things that also turned out to be quite helpful like EMDR and Internal Family Systems therapy and theater and yoga, but the transformations on psychedelics were really astonishing and made me really hopeful that we may enter a much more complex era of thinking about mental functioning.”
“It’s delicate, but we keep running away from it. But the reality is that if you really feel upset, getting a hug from somebody who loves you makes all the difference in the world, of course. That’s still our primary way in which we feel calm. And touch by other people may also scare the shit out of you and send you into a tailspin. So doing that right is very delicate and fraught with danger, but that doesn’t mean we can just keep running away from it.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Dana Lerman, MD: a decade-long infectious disease consultant who has since been trained in psychedelic-assisted therapy, ecotherapy, and Internal Family Systems, and is the Co-Founder of Skylight Psychedelics, where she prescribes IM ketamine and trains therapists who work with it.
Lerman tells her story: how working with kids with cancer made her want to learn medicine, what it was like working as an infectious disease expert during COVID, and how fascinating it has been to start with modern medicine and then fully embrace the traditional frameworks of ayahuasca ceremonies. She has realized that part of her role is to bring that intention, ceremony, and inner healing intelligence to modern medicine – that that will greatly benefit patients as well as clinicians who naturally want to be healers but are burnt out by the bureaucracy and distractions of the faulty container they find themselves in. Skylight Psychedelics is working on opening a clinical research division, researching psychedelics for Long COVID, and bringing in-person psychedelic peer support services to emergency rooms.
She also discusses intergenerational trauma and how psychedelics have affected her parenting; the impossibility of informed consent in psychedelics and why there should be disclaimers as well as instructions; accessibility, the need for insurance to cover psychedelic-assisted therapy, and why the price of these expensive treatments actually makes sense; why we should be sharing stories of mistakes and things going wrong during ceremonies; and why one of the biggest things we can do to further the cause is to educate our children and parents about psychedelics.
Notable Quotes
“What’s come to me recently in ayahuasca ceremony is that part of my role in this space is really to bring intention and to bring ceremony and the inner healing intelligence and that concept to the modern medicine space. I mean, there’s so many places for improvement in modern medicine, like even: We have a few minutes for a timeout so you can check to make sure that’s the right patient [and] it’s the right limb you’re going to amputate, but we don’t have a moment to talk about who this person is and the intention of this surgery and what we want for this person. We just have this disconnect, and this disconnect; obviously, it’s not just in medicine. It’s in everywhere. It’s our food. It’s our community. All systems.”
“I have three small children. A lot of why I went to ayahuasca was because I knew [beside wanting] to heal myself of all the stuff that I’ve been carrying around, I wanted to shift my parenting and to be a better parent, and I felt that if I carried my anxiety, my control, all the stuff: It just keeps getting passed down because the kids are just learning from us. But if you can address that, if you can address where does that come from, what is the work that has to be done around it, and do that work, your kids see it. My daughter: When I came home from ayahuasca (she was probably seven); she looked to me and she said, ‘Why didn’t you go there sooner?’”
“Anytime people are using these medicines, I think: There’s a huge disclaimer that should be coming with these medicines, like: ‘Your life will be changed forever. You will never look at anything the same way again, and there’s a possibility that you enter into a space where you are experiencing the vastness of the universe, and that may be very overwhelming for you when the journey is over. You need someone to talk about it with.’ The whole concept of integration is so important.”
In this episode, Joe interviews neuroscientist, board-certified psychiatrist, health tech entrepreneur, inventor, and Co-Founder & Chief Medical Officer at Apollo Neuro: Dr. Dave Rabin, MD, Ph.D.
He talks about his path to psychiatry; his realization that trauma and chronic stress were primary themes at the root of most mental illness; and the creation, research and implementation of the Apollo wearable: the first scientifically-validated wearable technology designed to improve energy, focus, and relaxation based on touch therapy. The idea was born from Rabin asking himself: If we’re all starved for touch and constantly feeling unsafe, our bodies prefer a calm, soothed state, and MDMA seems to work by amplifying feelings of safety and essentially telling our brains, “you’re safe enough to heal now,” could a rhythmic vibration programmed to stimulate touch receptors and put our bodies into a meditative state fool our brains into the same perceived feeling of safety – especially if that stimulation is constant? Would our nervous systems be able to tell the difference? So far, the data seems to prove that this technology works.
He discusses what they learned from initial research about how people were using their Apollo wearables; heart rate variability and what changes it; MAPS’ Phase III MDMA-assisted psychotherapy results; the idea of the inner healer; using the Apollo in conjunction with ketamine and other psychedelics to ease pre-experience anxiety; and the concept of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy as reverse trauma, the reality that it could stop epigenetic memory, and the question of whether or not the Apollo can do this on its own.
Apollo Neuro is continuing their research by running 14 different trials right now, and if you ever participated in a MAPS trial, you’re eligible for a free wearable. If you’re just curious about trying the Apollo, you can receive $50 off using this link.
Notable Quotes
“What we’ve learned through the study of all the work that came before us was that the body actually likes to be in that state. It likes to be in this calm, soothed state, and it’s just overwhelmed and overstimulated a lot of the time and that’s why it’s not in that state. So then the research question was: If we deliver the rhythm that our bodies like to breathe at when they’re at rest (which is like five to seven breaths per minute when we’re normally breathing at 12 to 24 breaths per minute, which is stress breathing), then would the body start to automatically breathe at its ideal rhythm on its own simply by receiving the right rhythm? Is that enough? Like, if you play the right dance beat, will people start dancing on their own or will they just sit in the chair?”
“The word ‘hallucination’ implies that what you’re experiencing is not real, and I hesitate to use that word in the context of psychedelic work because ‘psychedelic’ means to reveal the mind. And so, if we put out the understanding that the revelation of what’s underneath the surface of our consciousness in our minds is not real or hallucinatory, then we might be missing a lot of the meaning of what’s actually underneath the surface.”
“If we are able to show that other safety-based treatments, whether it’s MDMA or traditional ceremonial ayahuasca or other things, or ketamine therapy, or Apollo, or soothing touch: If any of these things are inducing similar changes to cortisol receptors that we saw in that MDMA trial, then we know it’s not the drug that is inducing the healing state. It’s the safety that is amplified by the drug that produces the healing response. And that will be really, really helpful to us as a field to understand what we actually need to heal. I think the theory is [that] we need to feel safe enough to heal. This would actually prove that.”
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, David speaks with two current Vital students: Certified Depth Hypnosis Practitioner and Founder and Executive Director of Zoo Labs, Vinitha Watson, CHT; and artist and outdoorsman with decades of experience in bodywork, structural integration, and Vipassana meditation: Judson Frost.
They talk about their personal paths: Watson’s work educating musicians about the music business and their value with Zoo Labs and Frost’s work as an artist; as well as how their experience as parents has grounded them, and how they found Vital. They discuss the importance of integration, having a process, and recognizing how long that can take; being adequately prepared and learning mindfulness skills ahead of a journey; and bringing courage to the space (and as the space-holder, encouragement). They talk about how they hold space, and how one needs to view integration from a spiritually-open perspective to enable people to find their own meanings behind what they experienced.
They discuss how Watson uses a combination of hypnotherapy, transpersonal psychology, and buddhism to create a slowed down mystical experience; how hypnotherapy can benefit a psychedelic experience; bodywork and how we can’t view the mind and body separately; and more. And since they’re nearing the end of their Vital experience, they discuss what they’ve gotten out of it, and reflect on something they didn’t expect: a collective feeling of regenerative healing inside their Vital community.
Notable Quotes
“There is a lot of harm that can be done when there’s no space for integration. As much as we may feel that it’s alleviating our pain, there has to be space in between to really look at the material, to look at the symbols of our psyches, and to really be able to get this intimate understanding of the symbols of our psyches and what they’re telling us. And so, I think it’s such a special place to go into integration after a psychedelic journey, and to really have a process and someone holding that space for you.” -Vinitha
“The first thing I bring to a space (and I encourage other people to bring to the space) is courage, and that bravery and that ability to kind of face the unknown, and face our fears and still move forward into them. I feel [that] to encourage someone is really important; like support and encourage them to take a step towards something they feel uncomfortable with. …We don’t usually have that support to really face that and to learn from it.” -Judson
“Thinking about culture and how a lot of it is in this disembodied state, and what the result is is disease, is pain, is sorrow. I think that’s why psychedelics and altered states are just so important, because it just gives you a state to come back to yourself, and a doorway in.” -Vinitha
In this episode, Joe interviews internationally renowned musician, comedian, writer, and actor, Reggie Watts. Watts starred on “Comedy Bang! Bang!,” most recently was the bandleader on CBS’s “The Late Late Show with James Corden” for the last 8 seasons, and just released his memoir, Great Falls, MT.
Watts discusses his early days of LSD use and how he felt psychedelics and cannabis were useful (in contrast to alcohol); how movies and TV rarely get the psychedelic experience right (and is that because writers haven’t experienced it?); and how the Situationist Movement inspired his concept of being a “disinformationist,” which he uses to bring an instability and psychedelic nature to his shows. And he discusses ketamine: why he loves it (especially with other people), a party he recently attended where everyone was open to trying it together, and why the group collectively agreeing to go deeper is so important to the experience.
He shares his thoughts on treating certain drugs as bases and others as modifiers, and how the wrong drugs are being treated as bases; the negative feedback loops some drugs (cocaine, nitrous oxide) send us into; psychedelic exceptionalism and the low quality, synthesized drugs created solely out of capitalistic greed; microdosing and the question of whether or not it’s become popular out of a fear of going deeper; what he wants to bring to to the psychedelic conversation; and why sometimes (in the right context), “going off the rails” can be a great thing.
Notable Quotes
“When I took LSD, just the whole universe opened up as one of the most absurdly humorous, funny things I’d ever experienced. …I wanted more. I wanted to explore more. It just was definitely one of those times when I thought, ‘I need to find out what else lies beyond what I’d already experienced.’”
“An unstable audience is my ideal state for an audience, because then they’re no longer in an expectational mindset. They’re more freed and open to whatever’s coming down the pike and happening in real time.”
“What I love about psychedelics, especially when you’re mindful about it, is: It’s an adventure. It’s an adventure into self-discovery, and from that, into worldview-understanding and your relationship to reality, and I think that that’s incredibly powerful and helpful and can help resolve a lot of conflicting issues that we have. It might not solve, but it’ll definitely soften and put you on a road to having a different relationship to trauma and a different relationship to ruts and cycles that you find not efficient for your lifestyle, and just create a greater connection to the whole of existence. And so I promote that at all costs. My message is: Reduce the fear of it, if you want to try – if you’re truly curious.” “When you’re in the right context, going off the rails is awesome, because you need to break all of those patterns. You need to reassociate to the reasons why you want to keep living. And I think taking a psychedelic trip and allowing yourself to go wherever it is that you want to go and just keeping that thought in your mind that it’s a trip and it’s going to end at some point, and when it does end, you will be back on the rails, so here’s your opportunity to just go for it: I think that that’s just important for people to experience.”
In this episode, Kyle interviews Ted Riskin, LCSW: psychotherapist running group KAP sessions and certified in Core Energetics, Internal Family Systems, and Holotropic Breathwork, which he has taught in various forms for 26 years.
He discusses group ketamine-assisted psychotherapy: how he runs sessions, why being welcomed and loved in a group seems to be a bigger factor than the psychedelic, how he came to combine IFS with ketamine or breathwork, and why exploring the parts work of IFS seems to work so well with non-ordinary states of consciousness. And he talks about two complications we often don’t think about with Group KAP: the challenge of getting our different parts to all truly consent to an experience (and how do you get them to?), and how very safe spaces can inspire oversharing, and sadly, subsequent shame.
He discusses knowing when to use a non-directive approach vs. intervening; how people often learn more about themselves as a sitter; using core energetics before experiences to move energy we’re often afraid to work with; the importance of embracing anger (when necessary); memory reconsolidation and bringing exiles from the past into the present; the concept of double bookkeeping; and finding the magic in realizing that sometimes, just being there (“being a useless person” as he says) is all that’s needed.
Notable Quotes
“I think people underestimate the power of breathwork. These days, a lot more, people are coming to do breathwork for the first time and they have done psychedelics. In the past, that was more the minority, now it’s probably the majority. And I’ll tell them, ‘The difference is, you’re used to riding a motorcycle, and now this is a bicycle. You’ve got to pedal this one.’ And yet they’re shocked sometimes how deep just the breathing takes them.”
“We’re realizing that there’s so many things happening that it’s impossible to tease it apart. We don’t know how much the ketamine increases self-leadership, we don’t know if it’s the IFS work that people are doing, but I suspect it’s a combination – that the ketamine seems to really lubricate the IFS work and invites protectors to relax so that people can do deeper, and the rearrangement of the techniques of IFS happens much more deeply.”
“We also think the group experience is as powerful as anything else that’s happening, especially when people are anxious or depressed. Often, they have assumptions about how they will be welcomed by other people, and to be in a loving group where people are vulnerable and find out, ‘I can say anything. I can talk about my shame and fears and people are just with me and accepting’: I sometimes wonder if that’s doing more than the medicine, even.”
Khan shares his journey into the world of science and policymaking, beginning with science journalism and inspired by David Nutt’s famous ‘Equasy’ paper and subsequent firing for telling the truth. Realizing how strong the disconnect was between political and science worlds, his goal became to represent science when it comes under attack; using campaigning, lobbying, advocacy work, etc., and essentially becoming a translator between science and society – bringing these overly complicated concepts down to a level every day culture can understand. At UC Berkeley, he’s focusing on research, training scientists to be better communicators, educating the public on the benefits of psychedelics, and trying to make research more trustworthy.
He discusses the word “science” and how it’s used to describe lots of things; the hard problem of consciousness; color constancy, perception, and the influence of priors; the risk of abuse in all therapies; trust and why people don’t always “trust the science”; the risks of putting too much faith in experience insights; the word “sacred”; and more. He concludes by discussing the findings of the first UC Berkeley psychedelic survey, which revealed public sentiments and attitudes towards psychedelics, and, while mostly positive, truly proved the need for people like Khan to be out there educating the public.
Notable Quotes
“They fired [David Nutt] from his role as Independent Advisor and Chair of this Advisory Council on Misuse of Drugs. So I’m sitting there as this 20 year-old that all I’m there to do is care about how science works, and how do we protect the voice of scientists in policy-making, and how do we ensure that policy is informed by the evidence rather than going in the face of it, and right in the middle of that, this very high profile scientist basically gets sacked by the government for basically just saying what the science says, which, as far as I can see, was all he was being asked to do.”
“It’s really hard to look at the experience of being human and this amazing, vivid, technicolor experience we have of walking around and doing everything from drinking coffee to walking a dog to looking at a sunrise, and not being totally bemused that that experience can be generated by this two pound lump of mostly water with a bit of fat and protein mixed in in our skulls. That just seems like an insane proposition to me. So I remember when I was learning about that in my undergraduate and kind of trying to figure out the basic principles of neuroscience, it just seemed like this amazing question of: How can this ever be possible? This doesn’t seem like it should compute.”
“Experiences with psychedelics later as well, I think lead you to a similar place in that if you disrupt ordinary waking consciousness, you can almost start to see the way in which your brain changes its production of consciousness. And the idea that that dramatic change can be induced by chemicals that we know the structure of and we can characterize and we can understand how they interact with the brain, again, just feels like an interesting kind of chink in that bigger question of: What is consciousness and who are we, and how do we relate to the rest of the world?”
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, David interviews Erika Dyck: Vital instructor, historian, professor, author, and editor of the new book, Expanding Mindscapes: A Global History of Psychedelics; and Jono Remington-Hobbs: graduate of the first cohort of Vital, coach, facilitator, and now, Co-Founder of Kaizn, an experiential wellness company with a strong focus on community, creating a feeling of safety, and modern rites of passage.
They talk a lot about rites of passage and how they create liminal spaces to reflect on the deeper questions we need to ponder but our culture doesn’t allow time for. They talk about how categorization took us away from tradition; how so much of what we get out of these experiences isn’t related to psychedelics at all; why we struggle with connection in the digital age; the power of community as medicine and recognizing a kinship in others; and why we need to integrate our heads and hearts and live more heart-led lives.
They also dive into why cultures have always sought out non-ordinary states of consciousness; how our current state of needing to make sense of a chaotic world is similar to the mindstate of the 60s; psychedelics’ success in palliative care; coaching and why it should be attached to therapy; the creation of the word “psychedelic”; flow states and discovering the intrinsic calling we all have; and the Vital question that starts the podcast out: Are psychedelics the future, or will psychedelics just bring about a different way to think about the future?
“I keep sort of wrestling with this question about whether the future of psychedelics is really about psychedelics or whether psychedelics are a tool for unlocking a different kind of future. …And to me, that’s really an exciting possibility for what this psychedelic renaissance holds: that it’s an opportunity to really take stock of what we want to revive about the past, whether it is psychedelic or not. It might be something more sacred, it might be a kind of humanity or a kind of way of thinking, that focusing on psychedelics allows us to think differently about how we want to organize those thoughts, those actions. And I think it’s a really exciting opportunity to invest in this kind of renaissance moment, to really blend these historical impulses with an opportunity to think about a different future.” -Erika
“The role of community with psychedelics: I think that we can occasionally get a little bit lost that it’s the psychedelics, the medicine. And the more I’m seeing is that the medicine is community and psychedelics are the implementation tool of that medicine.” -Jono
“Tolerance is a word that comes to mind as you were talking. I think that one of my hopes is that (and it doesn’t have to be everybody taking psychedelics) it can be just tolerance towards difference. I think psychedelics can help us to come into a place where we can appreciate that diversity is a strength, that difference is a strength, that sameness isn’t necessarily the strength or the goal that we should be striving towards.” -Erika
“[Psychedelics] are an offsetting of an eternal balance between these two hemispheres. And we’ve gone so far one way with this worldview where we are also gamified by what we do. The amount of information that I know because an algorithm wants me to know; it terrifies me when I actually think about it, but on the other side, the amount of wisdom …that’s available from us, from these experiences that we’re having that help guide us back to this other way of being gives me radical hope – radical, radical hope that things haven’t gone too far. It’s just the pendulum has swung very far one way, and I think psychedelics are some of the momentum to take us back the other way and back to ourselves, each other, and Mother Nature.” -Jono
He tells his personal story and how his first psychedelic experience felt like a homecoming; discusses his Rebel Wisdom media platform, where, through interviews, he tried to make sense of social upheavals and conflicts through a more flexible, psychedelic way of thinking; and digs deep into the Greek concepts of Moloch and Kairos: how Moloch represents the winner-take-all, race to the bottom, sacrifice-your-values-to-appease-the-system game playing we all get stuck in, and Kairos represents the openness that comes from psychedelics – the transitional, seize-the-moment opportunities we need to take advantage of. And he discusses much more: the power of dialectic inquiry; the corporatization of psychedelics and how we’re really in a psychedelic enlightenment; how the medicalization of psychedelics is like a Trojan horse; and the concept of technology (and specifically the internet) mirroring the switching between realms that we think is so rare in psychedelics – aren’t we doing that every time we look at our phones?
Beiner was recently part of Imperial College London’s initial trials on intravenous, extended-state DMT, testing correct dosages and speeds for the pump. He describes the details of the study, how he thought they were messing with him at first, and what he saw in his experiences: an outer space-like world of gigantic planet-like entities, and how a massive Spider Queen entity taught him about intimacy and how our metaphysical and personal worlds aren’t separate at all.
Notable Quotes
“There’s a particularly psychedelic way of thinking in my view. …I would define it as a flexibility in how we think and a looseness and a creativity and a playfulness with how we approach the world that psychedelics can open up in us. And I think that’s so deeply needed right now. So my hope is to kind of combine that ethos together with a lot of very practically important, interesting, sociological, psychological, scientific, and metaphysical insights, and use all of that to write a book that hopefully gives people new lenses in which to make sense of the world and psychedelics.”
“The process of speaking to the truth of your lived experience in the moment is deeply transformative. And it’s also, in my experience and I think the experience of many people, it’s what psychedelics encourage us to do: They encourage us to be with the truth of our experience and go into what we’ve been hiding from and avoiding, and feel it – feel the truth of what’s actually going on. And that is so, so powerful culturally because so many of our cultural shadows and our polarization and our ‘at each other’s throats’ and our ideological fixations come from these unsaid things. So there’s so many practices, psychedelics included, that can open us up into the truth of what’s going on. And I think that is just the most transformative practice or approach that there is that I’m aware of.”
In this episode, Alexa interviews Dom Farnan: Founder of DotConnect; author of the best seller, “Now Here: A Journey from Toxic Boss to Conscious Connector”; and Founder and Chief Consciousness Connector of DoseConnect™, a first-of-its-kind company blending organizational strategy, systems thinking, and talent acquisition in the psychedelic space.
Farnan shares her personal journey with psychedelics, discussing her experiences with psilocybin, ayahuasca, and 5-MeO-DMT, and how the last few years of her life have been focused on slowing down and integrating those experiences. She discusses the current state of the psychedelic industry, including downsizing and company closures, but also opportunities from networking, community engagement, and volunteering. She believes that while options may not be clear now, they will be there in the future, and may be jobs we never anticipated. So get to know companies now, and pay close attention with good discernment – not everything is as it appears.
She discusses her experiences with mentors and coaches; how psychedelic journeys and integration build onto each other; the importance of journaling; the need for patience as the industry grows; her book and the concept of conscious leadership over toxic leadership; and the beauty of embracing the openness we experience after a psychedelic experience: Can we use what we’ve learned to reprogram what we’re taught about life, invest in ourselves, let go of dissenting and limiting voices, and truly redefine what success (and happiness) means to us?
Notable Quotes
“It’s not always about the substance or the plant medicine. It is underlying about the healing and being more conscious as a leader and as a human being and as a contributor to the community that we live in. And so, for me, that’s what all of this is really grounded in. As much as I’m an advocate, I’m also very much aware that not everyone can leverage these medicines, and a lot of people are still scared and don’t quite know and maybe they can’t handle it and all of that. And that’s totally fine. …I just look at life as being psychedelic, and there’s so many things that you can do in your daily life that create this beautiful experience that don’t require any other things to contribute to that.”
“When you do this exercise, the invitation is to give yourself full permission to let go of everything that you’ve ever heard from anybody else. So, like, get out of the shoulds or your parents say this or your partner thinks that, or your best friends think this or your boss says that. Let all that shit go and just drop into truly your own heart space. Like, what does success look and feel like to me? If money were not an option, what would I be doing? How would I be spending my days? And the energy that I want to feel and be in – less so even, like, the tasks and the doing stuff, but it’s like, how do you want to feel? Because that helps you to then think through opportunities that will be in alignment of you achieving that feeling every day.”
“Understand the energetics, because if you’re going to be leading from a place of fear in your life, it’s only going to attract more of that stuff. If you’re really leading from a place of faith and looking at this as an opening for something new in your life, then that is when something new will show up. You have to be in that energetic vibe.”
This episode – the last of the many recorded at Psychedelic Science 2023 – may ruffle some feathers, as Wheal is very outspoken and opinionated, focusing on what he spoke about at the conference: the pitfalls of the psychedelic movement. While his outlook is negative, he speaks with humor, and these shadow aspects are issues we need to be talking about: how the nature of capitalism and returning profits to shareholders affects the concept of set and setting; how easy it is to prescribe ketamine and the puppy mill clinics popping up everywhere; how innovators are racing to the bottom to get ahead; the designer drug epidemic likely leading us to a Prozac Nation 2.0; digital narcissism, Instagram “Shamans,” and the dangers of cults; chemists trying to take the experience out of the drug; the overuse of psychedelics creating super egos; and much more.
While he believes the hype and excitement of the psychedelic renaissance is leading us towards a trough of dissolution and that people aren’t turning their amazing experiences into net positives anywhere near enough, he believes that fewer people using psychedelics less often and more intensely – with initiatory practices, intentions, integration, and honest self-reflection – will help us all climb out of our egos and move towards a healthier society. There is hope, but we need to honestly look at all the shadow aspects in order to move towards it.
Notable Quotes
“I think that ironically, the Prozac Nation 2.0 model, the medicalization of the psychedelic experience: on the one hand, it will absolutely wring most of the magic out of the experience that has been the whole point and premise from the Eleusinian mysteries, from ancient shamanistic traditions – the whole point was the magic. Prozac Nation 2.0 will defang that, will denature that, but on the other hand, it will protect it from some of its worst excesses and abuses. I think the bottom of the trough will be resolved for psychedelic cults. …It feels like there is a rush to fill the void of fundamentally fuckwit Instagram ‘Shamans’ thinking that they have some unique and profound message, and that their insights, their metaphysics, their cosmology, their practices are somehow worthy of instantiation and followers.”
“These days, the worst people are doing the best drugs. We have a bunch of entitled, upper middle class to ultra high net worth, bougie white folks wearing big dumb hats, tripping balls on the best, most sacred substances ever available to humans, and not changing their orientations or their attitudes one bit. And they’ve just become party favors. …It’s all the beautiful people, and I haven’t yet seen one empty their bank accounts, put on sackcloth, take up a begging bowl, rework their lives, dedicate them to charity. I’ve seen lots of: ‘We’re going to set up a VC fund,’ or ‘Where’s the next amazing party that we’re jetting or boating off to?’”
“After 5-MeO-DMT, we are out of bullets. If this isn’t enough to cause us to drop to our knees and weep with gratitude for the precious burden and blessing of our incarnated humanity, and then get the fuck back up and help the least of our brothers and sisters to figure this out without further distraction or delay, we don’t have anything else. We have used up all the silver bullets, because we’ve just been praying and spraying.”
In this episode, David interviews psychiatrist, main researcher behind the first US Phase II trial of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, and Senior Medical Director at MAPS Public Benefit Corporation: Dr. Michael Mithoefer; and Research Group Lead at the University of Zurich, and Principal Clinical Biomarker Lead at Boehringer Ingelheim, Katrin Preller, Ph.D.
Mithoefer, Preller (and David) are speakers at Psychedelic Medicine – Israel, which will now take place July 28 – 31, 2024, in Tel Aviv. They discuss the conference and their current research: Preller’s neuroimaging and work with psilocybin for alcohol use disorder, and Mithoefer (likely) being extremely close to seeing the FDA approve MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. He talks about how the therapeutic protocols for MDMA-assisted psychotherapy were created, what it’s like to be so close to legalization, and how the next challenges will be accessibility and not minimizing therapy in favor of faster turnover.
They discuss neuroplasticity and whether or not it actually translates into something in humans; the concept of performing brain scans before a psychedelic experience to look for trauma biomarkers (and how this could actually result in savings over time); the excitement of seeing clinical work and neuroscience progressing in parallel; why integration frameworks need to be individualized; and the importance of embracing different therapeutic approaches.
Notable Quotes
“We need to find ways to make it increase the cost effectiveness or the efficiency without losing the human connection and the inclusion of robust therapy in the process. So it’s a big challenge. But in the research, we’ve done everything we could think of to increase the chances of safety and success and efficacy. So we couldn’t individualize. So I think part of it will be figuring out: some people may need even more support than they had in the research, but some people may be able to do it in a more streamlined way, and also groups and things like that. So I think we need to be really creative about how to do it and also resist the pressures of minimizing the therapy and the human connection in favor of speed.” -Michael
“We’ve already shown in healthy participants that basically the way your brain is working without any substances on board is associated with the way your brain reacts to a psychedelic. And we’ve seen that across different brain metrics. That doesn’t tell us anything about clinical efficacy quite yet, but it tells us that there is something in your usual daily waking state that may have to do with how you react to a psychedelic. Now, the next step would then, of course be: well, can we close the gap on how you react to the psychedelic, whether that has something to do with whether or not you actually get better after psychedelic or MDMA-assisted therapy? So there are many gaps for sure at this point, but I think that doing this research, we may eventually be able to close these gaps and eventually maybe have an idea of who may benefit, who may not benefit, [or] whether MDMA is the correct or the most beneficial treatment versus psilocybin.” -Katrin
“One of the dangers I see if these drugs are approved is thinking you need more drug, you need higher doses, you need it more often or whatever, instead of: You need more integration.” -Michael
In this episode, Melanie Pincus, Ph.D. and Manesh Girn, Ph.D. once again take over hosting duties, this time interviewing Gül Dölen, MD, Ph.D.: Associate professor of Neuroscience and Neurology at the Johns Hopkins University, School of Medicine, and head of the Dölen lab.
Dölen largely researches the neuroscience behind social behaviors and is most known for her work in establishing how psychedelics reopen critical periods of learning, and that the true benefit of psychedelics could be in learning how best to reopen those critical periods, how long they’re open for, and which therapeutic frameworks and integration practices could best take advantage of them. Her most recent research was giving MDMA to otherwise very asocial (and violent) octopuses to prove that a drastically different species would exhibit typical MDMA-inspired prosocial behavior. And, after discovering that all the classic psychedelics worked to reopen critical periods – that psychedelics are apparently the master key to opening these periods – she’s now researching why, through the PHATHOM project (Psychedelic Healing: Adjunct Therapy Harnessing Opened Malleability).
You will likely learn a ton in this episode: why critical periods close as we get older and what may impede them from opening more often; how plasticity and metaplasticity relate to each other and why increased neuroplasticity isn’t always a good thing; how the length of different psychedelic experiences relates to efficacy; why the different results of MAPS’ and Compass Pathways’ studies show the importance of therapy; how autism could be related to critical periods; why repeated psychedelic use may make it harder for one’s brain to reset; and how important context is in the ability to reopen critical periods – especially around social learning.
Notable Quotes
“I was at Johns Hopkins and I remember my department chair was like, ‘Gul, we hired you to cure autism. What the hell is this octopus MDMA [stuff]?’ And I was like, ‘Just wait, it’s going to be awesome. You’ll see.’”
“We were really surprised that they all reopened this critical period. And what it suggested to us is that what it feels like to reopen a critical period is just what it feels like to be in that altered state of consciousness that’s shared across all of the psychedelics.”
“[Psychedelics] have this thing which all of the drug companies are seeing as a glitch, but I actually think is a feature, which is this context dependence. So, the fact that the drugs are context-dependent means that you’re only going to reorganize the extracellular matrix and the network of synaptic plasticity at these synapses within these circuits in the subset of circuits and synapses that are relevant to that particular context or that set of memories. And because you’re sort of fine-tuning it in that way, I think it somehow circumvents this problem of structural instability or amnesia. So we’re going to spend the next 10 years trying to figure out how the neurons know what context they’re in.”
“Really, the utility of psychedelics is pairing it with a therapy, and that the therapy is the principle and the psychedelic is just the adjunct therapy that makes that learning so much easier. And so, the way I would frame it is that right now, we’re at a kind of debate point between the biochemical model and the learning model of how not just depression, PTSD, but every disorder of the brain is, in some sense, a disruption in the learned pattern, and that if psychedelics are not just restoring a biochemical imbalance but enabling learning, then we can relearn. And that would really be a paradigm shift in our way of understanding why psychedelics are useful in so many different therapeutic contexts and what other diseases and non-diseases we might be able to use psychedelics to help treat.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Federico Seragnoli: coordinator of the ALPS Foundation, psychologist who works with patients undergoing compassionate use treatments with psychedelics, and Founder of the ALPS Conference.
This year, the ALPS Conference (which stands for Awareness Lectures on Psychedelic Science) takes place Oct. 27 – 29 at the Bâtiment des Forces Motrices in Geneva – a prime location for a conference due to Switzerland’s legality around psychedelics, where any citizen can apply for psilocybin or LSD therapy if they fall into the category of ‘treatment-resistant.’ Seragnoli discusses how the conference was originally inspired by an article on the MAPS blog about how to be a psychedelic researcher; and talks about its humble beginnings, its new location, and why it’s moved across the country each year. The conference features names like Rick Doblin and Michael Mithoefer, but he’s most excited about the smaller size of the event and the panel discussions, which gives attendees a chance to ask questions and hear some real conversations.
He discusses the vibrant field of psychedelic therapy and research in Switzerland; the importance of compassionate use and the criteria physicians need to be able to use it; the impact of students creating psychedelic associations at their universities; and Seragnoli’s new research: seeing if there is a link between cognitive science and a conceptualization of science – if you can model consciousness off neuroscience, can you model it off how you feel?
Notable Quotes
“When we deal with psychedelic therapy, with people coming as patients, we have to find ways to let them know what they are going to do and to let them integrate what happened in their own mind. So one thing that you actually do every time when you prepare people for that is to just straightaway try to understand how they perceive themselves as cognitive agents. In other terms, it would be like how do they feel about being a conscious human being? What is their narrative, what is the story that they tell themselves around what is their own consciousness, like their own naive definition of consciousness? And then basically, you try to get their own worldview on this, then you try to inform that worldview with more [pragmatic] and useful ways of seeing it so they can better use it to better regulate themselves.”
This sequel to their fascinating discussion about shadow work earlier this year focuses on dreams, as Amara, while dreaming that she was having an acid trip and coming to the realization that dreams and LSD may be sending her to the same place, is researching the similarities between the odd worlds of dreams and psychedelic experiences: Is it the same place? Do the dreams we have after psychedelic experiences continue those visions and ‘Aha!’ moments? Can they answer questions for us (the concept of “sleep on it”)? Does dream analysis result in a greater feeling of integration? Can we use the dreams we have before experiences to help guide the experience itself?
The conversation goes a lot of places: the many aspects of Jungian psychology; the fluidity of Indigenous perspectives around visible and invisible worlds; how Jung wrote “The Red Book”; the concept of eros and reclaiming our relationship with aliveness; how nature is in constant equilibrium (as are we); how to build a relationship with your dreams; how to work with symbols in dreams; and much more. Ultimately, this episode is about the clash between the conscious and unconscious, the willed and the incidental, and waking life and other realities, and dream analysis and integration work is really tracking vitality in the human psyche: what is alive in us and how does it want to live out in our beings? What makes us come alive? Can our dreams tell us?
Notable Quotes
“I was inside my dream, analyzing my dream, and having the phenomenological experience of being on LSD, and it was like, ‘Holy shit, is this the same place?’” -Mackenzie
“When you sit with a dream image that maybe scares you or that you avoid: When you sit with it long enough for its purpose to be revealed, it’s like, ‘Man, cool, thank you for sending me that image.’ And you can start to trust that there’s something larger inside of you that has your back. And that level of trust, that level of existential secure attachment (is what I’ve been calling it lately) is un-fuck-with-able. Nobody can take that from you. Once you have that, you’re good. All the chaos can happen around you, but you’ve got something inside of you that nobody can touch.” -Mackenzie
“These are all experiences with the numinous. The numinous wears all the shapes. It’s only our human hubris that searches for it in particular shapes. If we kind of quiet that hubris a little bit and let the self, let the numinous talk in its own language for a second, we can all be humbled to see how vast its language is and how it can find us even in the most ridiculous images.” -Ido
“When we have these experiences, when we’re given this content from our unconscious, it’s an invitation to join the family, to join the life that is living through all things. And that to me, is just really, really hopeful, and I think it’s why I’m so inspired and passionate about psychedelics, is the possibility of them to alleviate that nihilistic thought pattern that says ‘I’m alone in this world.’ When we really, really feel into what’s happening for us, it’s collective. We’re in a collective experience, constantly, all the time. And that’s really beautiful and healing.” -Mackenzie
In this episode, Joe interviews Louie Schwartzberg: renowned filmmaker known for the award-winning documentary, “Fantastic Fungi”; and now, director of the new film, “Gratitude Revealed.”
He talks about his path to photography and filmmaking and how psychedelics were a huge inspiration – how his techniques of slowing down, speeding up, and zooming in were ways to capture the invisible aspects of reality – that which is “too slow, too fast, too small, and too vast for the human eye,” but is always there. He discusses the premiere of “Fantastic Fungi” and the waves it spread through the psychedelic space; The Louie Channel, his new streaming channel that will feature all his work in 4k and the work of other curated artists and friends; and the clinical trial he’s involved in to see if participants have better results in the treatment of their alcohol use disorder by watching his imagery set to music on an 80-inch screen while on psilocybin – research that hopefully leads to the concept of being able to prescribe images and music to people based on specific criteria.
He discusses his new film, “Gratitude Revealed,” which explores the power of gratitude: making it a daily practice (and especially a post-psychedelic integration practice), how resilience is one of the best benefits from practicing gratitude, and how easy it is to stop a rumination spiral by simply finding something to be grateful for. He also talks about the blessing of being a photographer and always thinking of beauty; how psychedelics make people more environmentally conscious; tripping with parents; how a shared love of nature could be the bridge between opposing sides; and how the best way to deal with the climate crisis is to start in your own yard.
Notable Quotes
“We’re talking about psychedelics on your podcast, but the truth is, I think the imagery I want to create for your community, this community, is exactly the same as I would do for a four-year-old or a five-year-old. How beautiful is that? It’s about wonder and awe. It’s about being open-minded.” “The politicians, they understand how to press that fear button. They go right to the cultural differences and press the abortion button or the gun thing or whatever it might be, and all the lies and all that. I don’t want to even spend another second talking about that, other than [to say] we have to be conscious that pressing the fear button is easy to do because that’s survival, and you get an immediate reaction. The films I’m trying to make and what we’re discussing here is making people laugh, making people cry, making people fall in love. That takes a little more talent than pointing a gun at you. …Beauty and love and gratitude is the emotional energy we can employ to overcome fear.”
“It’s a great tool. It’s not like we have to practice meditation, become a Yogi for like ten years or 20 years of practice. It’s something you can do immediately. It’s not like a meditation thing that you have to become an expert in. It’s like, how easy is it just to ask yourself in the moment: what can I be grateful for? Pretty easy.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Deborah C. Mash, Ph.D.: neuroscientist; Professor Emerita of Neurology and Molecular and Cellular Pharmacology at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine; and leading researcher in addiction and brain disorders for over 30 years.
She is also the CEO and Founder of DemeRx Inc., a clinical stage drug development company working to advance ibogaine and its active metabolite, noribogaine, for the treatment of opioid use disorder. She talks about the Federal and state complications behind ibogaine research, the need for partnerships between clinics and researchers, what needs to be done to collect much needed Phase II and III ibogaine data, and why this all has to be in partnership with the FDA.
And she discusses much more: her story of how studying Cocaethylene led to her finding out about ibogaine; ibogaine and QTc-prolongation; deaths related to iboga and the amount of variables that aren’t considered; how the French were essentially using noribogaine in the 1930s; and, as this was recorded at Psychedelic Science 2023, her thoughts on the event and Rick Doblin’s opening statement.
Notable Quotes
“We can now study all of the neurons in the brain for the first time and genetically phenotype them. So now we know there are subclasses of GABA neurons, there are subclasses of glutamate neurons. I mean, this is profound. And so here we are. We’re at, again, another next wave of learning about the human brain. There’s more neurons and neural connections in the human brain than there are stars in the Milky Way galaxy. So it’s a complicated story.”
“If anything, ibogaine is the hardest psychedelic to work with. But I’m here for the challenge.”
They explore the relationship between Judaism and psychedelics, with Margolin sharing her experiences growing up in a Hindu-Jewish family; her personal journey with her Jewish identity; and how her use of psychedelics has deepened her life. She talks about the significance of Jewish holidays and how holiday traditions connect them to nature and themselves in a very psychedelic way; the importance of intentionality; the beauty in dancing through an uncomfortable ayahuasca experience; the Jewish Psychedelic Summit; whether or not ancestors were using substances (and does that matter?), and why being in Israel feels so different – and psychedelic.
Margolin is an instructor in our new course, “Navigating Psychedelics: Jewish Informed Perspectives,” where she will be leading discussions on setting sacred time and space, particularly focusing on the significance of Shabbat and the energetic frequencies that are at play during certain holidays. The 9-week course begins next week – October 10 – so sign up now!
Notable Quotes
“I don’t think set and setting has to only apply to doing a psychedelic trip. I think it really applies to life in general: like, what are you bringing to a situation and what’s the situation bringing to you?”
“The term, ‘Yisrael’ means to wrestle with God, and I think so much of the Jewish experience is this kind of complicated relationship with the creator. …I think that’s what it is to be Jewish, is to really be seeking out this relationship. …Psychedelics offer us this opportunity to really dig into ourselves and be seekers in this way, and I find that there’s a lot of spiritual journeying and impulse in the Jewish community.”
In this episode – with the 2024 edition of Vital announced and applications officially open – we’re launching another series of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, with David hosting Jasmine Virdi: Vital instructor, writer, educator, and activist who works at Synergetic Press and volunteers for Fireside Project; and Tabata Gerk: Vital student, psychotherapist, and facilitator.
As always, they discuss what they think the most vital conversation should be right now, largely expressing concerns over the medicalization of psychedelics and the idea of a ‘traumadelic culture,’ where psychedelics are often only seen as healers of trauma and not doorways to mysticism and new ideas. And they point out another concern: the romanticization of Indigenous culture and not recognizing that these are contemporary cultures that are affected by the same Western, capitalist paradigms that affect us all.
They also discuss the concept of epistemic injustice and needing to respect other ways of knowing; hyper-individualism and why we became so reductionist as a society; the role of money (who defines the problem and the solution?); concerns over who decides who is allowed to use these substances; the power of small steps of change; and, through talking about Gerk’s recent Amazonian ayahuasca experience, they dig into what it is about these experiences and surrounding communities that make them so special. Could we take some of that and effectively incorporate it into our Western models?
Notable Quotes
“In this day and age that we exist in, I think there’s a medicalization of psychedelics, and they’re really kind of honed in on for their ability to treat different mental health and behavioral disorders. And I think that they’re so much more than that.” -Jasmine
“I think that there’s a lot of romanticization of Indigenous cultures as well, and through that, there can be an active erasure of those cultures. Indigenous cultures have been evolving alongside Western, industrial, globalist culture, so they’re not peoples who are stuck in time, and I think that the Western mind, a lot of people want to perceive those cultures as kind of like, ‘Oh, they kept something pure, and we’re going to go back to these people because they have this purity that they’ve maintained over time.’ It’s like perpetuating this idea of ‘the noble savage.’ I think that Indigenous people also are contemporary, so I think it’s really important to recognize that. …These cultures have problems, these cultures are evolving, and these cultures are influenced by modern Western, industrialized, globalist culture, [and] capitalism as well.” -Jasmine
“Plant medicine was one of the things that brought me healing there. We have three ayahuasca ceremonies, we have Kambo ceremony. But it was not only that. Everything that I saw, every conversation that I have with them was a part of the healing I received there. Not to mystify the Indigenous community, [but] their healing doesn’t come only from plant medicine. It comes from daily basis. It comes from the way they work, they relate. They are connected on a daily basis.” -Tabata
In this episode, Joe interviews Ethan Nadelmann: author, speaker, Founder and former Executive Director of Drug Policy Alliance, host of the PSYCHOACTIVE podcast, and one of the leading voices in drug policy reform and harm reduction.
Nadelmann shares his journey from Princeton University to founding Drug Policy Alliance, to working with George Soros, encouraging Gary Johnson to push cannabis legalization, and interacting with prominent figures like Milton Friedman and Grover Norquist. He explores the motivations behind the drug war, the massive growth of incarcerations it led to, why the US spread its war on drugs abroad even when it went against our best interests, and, thankfully, the progress made in fighting the drug war – particularly with cannabis and psychedelics.
And he discusses much more: the banning of drug testing kits; the damages of our slow learning curve against the idea of a safe supply; the risks of under-prescribing opioids for people who actually need them; how libertarians, the right, and left are all starting to become against the drug war for the same reasons; why cigarette smokers should all switch to vaping; the concept of needing to pass a test at the pharmacy to prove you understand (and won’t abuse) medication; and some strong arguments for decriminalization as an incremental step. And he asks some pretty important questions that we can all simmer on for a bit: how do we find a balance between helping people and not opening the rest of society up to harm? How do we challenge abuse in a way that doesn’t hurt future harm reduction efforts? And how do we incentivize people into acting in their own best interests?
Notable Quotes
“The drug war resulted in the unnecessary arrests of tens of millions of Americans, the unnecessary incarceration of millions of Americans (oftentimes for very long periods of time), hundreds of thousands of people dying in this country with HIV/AIDS unnecessarily, tens of thousands dying of overdose unnecessarily. That was the drug war.”
“If I could snap my fingers and all of the 30, 35 million American cigarette smokers in the country today, or all of the 1.1 billion smokers around the world were to suddenly stop smoking cigarettes, and all of them were to take up vaping (the e cigarettes); …it would represent one of the greatest advances in public health in U.S. and global history, because the risks of smoking are so dramatically, dramatically greater than the risks of consuming nicotine in non-combustible forms.”
“You look at people pursuing that type of legal course of action where they claim it’s about helping bring attention, but in fact it’s having exactly the opposite results. Yes, it’s important to fix these things, but the methods and ways you go about it are incredibly important. It’s just like the same thing when you had that case involving the therapist in the MAPS training program who did stuff that was sexually inappropriate, etc. And on the one hand, you definitely need people to bring attention to that, and more credit to them for bringing attention to those abuses. On the other hand, one has to have the basic realization that that happens in all areas of psychotherapy. You can’t eliminate this stuff. It’s human nature, it’s humankind. You can minimize the incidence of it, you can bring attentions to the abuses, but make sure that what you’re advocating as the fix is not leading to doing more harm.”
In this special episode, Melanie Pincus, Ph.D. and Manesh Girn, Ph.D., who joined David in episode 403 to discuss the launch of their new course, essentially interview each other.
As the 2nd edition of their popular course, Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified, begins on November 1, we wanted to give them a chance to highlight some of the aspects of neuroscience students can expect to learn in the course, and what so many people who are interested in psychedelics don’t fully understand: What does neuroplasticity actually entail? Can one predict if a patient is more apt to have an experience with ego dissolution? How does the amygdala relate to mood disorders? When are critical periods of greater plasticity and socialization at their most beneficial? How does neuroplasticity relate to chronic stress?
They also discuss lessons they’ve received from their own journeys; why they created the course; serotonin; psychological flexibility; body-based versions of self vs. memory-based versions; psychedelics and re-encoding memories (and the potential for false memories); how psychedelic therapy is different from standard drug treatments; psychedelics and the default mode network (is the story oversimplified?), and much more.
For more information on their course, and to sign up, click here!
Notable Quotes
“A major insight from my psychedelic journeys is just how dense and heavy thoughts and mental content can be. And we often feel the need to overanalyze and think about things and get lost in our concepts and internal dialogue as opposed to experiencing things in the moment, as they are, in a more deeper kind of intimate way – having a greater intimate relationship with our senses, with the immediacy of what’s happening. And my psychedelic experiences, whether it’s with psilocybin or 5-MeO-DMT or what have you, have allowed me to glimpse into states where that stuff is just totally removed, and I’m just immersed in the rawness of experience and just how beautifully vibrant and alive and spontaneously intelligent that is, and how superfluous a lot of our thinking really is, and it just weighs us down. I think my journeys have just allowed me to live with greater ease and hold on to my identity and my narratives much more lightly. So I see them, I acknowledge them, but I’m not totally lost in them. I don’t identify strongly with them.” -Manesh
“Perhaps what’s happening is that MDMA induces a super positive mood where you feel really socially connected, really empathogenic with your therapist or whoever’s around you, you feel so safe and supported. And so if challenging traumatic memories come up, there’s this mismatch between the emotional trace of the traumatic memory and the unique state you’re in with the MDMA on board. And so this mismatch drives the memory reconsolidation process so that your traumatic memory is amended with less fear to be more in line with your current way you’re feeling of being so safe and supported.” -Melanie
In this episode, Kyle interviews Rachel Harris, Ph.D.: Psychologist in private practice for over 40 years, researcher who has published more than 40 peer-reviewed studies, and author of the new book, Swimming in the Sacred: Wisdom from the Psychedelic Underground.
She talks about graduating college and going straight to Esalen, where she had little concern over therapy or integration, and how, after 20 years of ayahuasca experiences, she learned to see psychedelic-assisted therapy and ceremonial, transformational experiences as very different things. She discusses her ayahuasca journeys; a surprising MDMA experience; what having an ongoing relationship with the spirit of ayahuasca means; Ann Shulgin’s concerns over going through death’s door while in a journey; what true integration is; how psychedelics can help prepare for death, and more.
And she talks about her new book, Swimming in the Sacred, which collects the stories, unique perspectives, and wisdom of 15 female elders who have been working in the underground for at least 15 years each, and how their experience has led to a somatic-based intuition and ‘know it in their bones’ feeling that so many new practitioners and facilitators need – and can only come with time.
Notable Quotes
“I kind of want to say to the newly-hatched psychedelic therapists: ‘Well, get this experience,’ but it’s very hard. And they’re not going to wait six years before practicing, so there’s such a need for them, and I can’t, in every podcast, (I mean, you’ll laugh at this), I can’t say, ‘Go do a lot of drugs,’ right? I’m trying to be more elegant about this, but that’s part of the elder women’s experience, is they really know the territory.”
“I know you’ve done a real apprenticeship, and I really respect that. And, yes, it’s very hard to find them, but that is the way people learn. So, what’s the best way to become a psychedelic therapist? It’s to be a patient with someone who’s a very experienced psychedelic therapist.”
“My priority was to work on myself and to grow and evolve. And so I always think of integration as part of a whole life: it’s not something that happens in a couple of sessions. But after these experiences, then what do we do with our lives and how do we live a more integrated life? And how do our lives unfold?”
Last year, Joe attended his first Burning Man, and sadly, we didn’t hear much about it. In this episode, recorded just a few days after Joe returned from his second outing of nearly 12 days on the playa, Victoria changes that, asking Joe all the burning questions we all want to know.
He talks about preparing for Burning Man and the numerous obstacles he and his partner, Ali, encountered on their very slow journey there; the media’s interpretation of the rain and mud vs. the reality of being there in the middle of it all; the bogus reports of an ebola outbreak and disaster zone surrounded by FEMA officials (and was that all a prank by Burners?); the debate over the environmental impact of such a massive event, and more.
And he talks about the many joys of Burning Man: how, despite the weather and needing to remain at camp more, the community, abundance, embracing of all that is weird, and passion to share and make the best of it all made this a better year for him in many ways. He learned the importance of patience, avoiding a frantic state, and fighting panic with positive vibes, which was made infinitely more easy with the Big Krab Car: the art car Ali built and they drove around, DJing on all week.
Notable Quotes
“We did some neighborhood block party/dance parties, we were just giving away some stuff, we had some amazing DJs. I think I, at one point, did a 5 and half hour DJ set from my phone through these gigantic sound systems, and people were over the moon about it. So it’s about: how do we fight that panic with positive, welcoming, generous vibes when we can? That’s how we did it. I know it was really hard for some people, but I’ve actually not seen anybody that I know that went that didn’t have the most amazing time at Burning Man. It was better for me this year than last year in a lot of ways.”
“That was actually the first thing I saw: the TMZ article. ‘Oh ok, this actually might make the news worldwide. Fascinating,’ which actually made the experience really interesting, to know that all the world’s eyes were on us. It made us want to show up better and do a better job.”
“Being held by a small community in your camp: if you find, luckily, a group of people that are just amazing to be with, like my camp, it’s just shocking and beautiful to be held and loved in that way and accepted in that way for a week and a half or however long it is. It’s life-shattering, life-changing, and so good. That was probably one of the biggest joys. And then just expanding your circles of friends after that’s your baseline, and you meet all their friends and it just balloons out to all these amazing new networks and connections.”
In this episode, Kyle interviews General Stephen Xenakis, MD: an adult, child, and adolescent psychiatrist who retired from the U.S. Army in 1998 at the rank of Brigadier General and began a career starting up medical technology companies and clinical practice to support human rights and new methodologies of healthcare.
In June, he became the new Executive Director of the American Psychedelic Practitioners Association (APPA), whose mission is to bring practitioners together as a community; develop the best training programs and practices; shift to a more patient-centered, integrated model of care; eventually accredit practitioners to practice with legal substances; and overall, help to make these new modalities more mainstream.
He discusses their path to success, which began with their publishing of the first professional practice guidelines for psychedelic-assisted therapy practitioners, and will continue on with ethical guidelines and clinical practice guidelines in the future. And he talks about the idea of a safety net for people who have adverse effects from psychedelic journeys; what clinicians need to know about psychedelics; concerns over accessibility; and the importance of identifying the correct treatments for the correct patients, as each person’s path to healing will likely be drastically different.
Notable Quotes
“We live in a world of disease-centered treatments, and we want to shift to a patient-centered model. We want to know that we’re not just treating your symptoms, we’re not just treating the problems that you have; that what you’re getting out of this is, in fact, helping you live the life that you want to live. What do those outcomes look like? How do we know [what] they are? How do we collaborate with you? It’s a partnership, it’s a rapport. It’s an alliance between you and me so that you’re getting what you feel is most important and we’re doing our job in providing it. That’s a big shift in medicine.”
In this episode, David interviews Dr. JoQueta Handy, Ph.D., IMD: speaker, author, educator, Natural Integrative Health Practitioner, and CEO and Chief Visionary of Brilliant Learning, Handy Wellness Center, and Brilliant Blends.
She shares childhood memories of growing up on her Grandparents’ farm, where she developed a deep appreciation for nature, staring at the stars, and the beauty in stillness, and how coming back to that stillness has been key in her life and psychedelic journeys. The conversation then shifts to all that she’s learned through her work with children on the autism spectrum: the problems of putting people into boxes; how autism affects everyone; the different ways people learn; the connection between autism and the gut microbiome; and how she has learned more from some of these children than any book could teach her – culminating in a story of discovering that a very challenged child people were ready to give up on could actually read and comprehend everything he was hearing.
She discusses her favorite adaptogens; the art of stacking adaptogens and different modalities; her multi-day coaching sessions; Internal Family Systems; quantum biofeedback; the use of supplements in microdosing; and Brilliant Blends, which sells blends of supplements designed to provide benefits as close to what psilocybin can provide (but legally) – inspired by the unique needs of autistic individuals. PT listeners can receive 10% off all purchases with code: PT10.
Notable Quotes
“If we look at Western medicine, we are masters at saving lives. We’re not so great at quality of life. And looking more toward Eastern medicine, European medicine: where body, mind and soul [is] more brought into play – healing, working on the mind, the emotional, the mind and the body for a complete healing… So that was really why I chose the path of natural integrative medicine because I did see that everything has a place. Everybody brings a talent to the table. …We, many times, need a village for healing.”
“I’ve had some wonderful mentors along the way, but being on the ground, so to speak – not just in a laboratory, formulating things – being hands-on with those children on a day-to-day basis: that was the greatest teacher of: how is this herb working? How is this adaptogen working? So when I went to formulate Brilliant Blends, I just knew it had to honor them because I was using that knowledge base. I use it on a daily basis with everyone. …Autistic children have taught us what we know from autism, and what we know from autism applies to everyone.”
“That’s the end game. That’s the bottom line in all of this work that we’re doing. That’s where the transformation and freedom is: to realize that this medicine is in all of us. Maybe we’re just using psychedelics to open that door to reveal it and show us the path how to anchor it, but this medicine is in all of us and always was. So if we can use these different pathways, these different approaches to lead us back home, then bravo.”
In the first-ever episode of Hyphae Leaks, Mary and Reggie sit down with Joe Moore and share their backgrounds, impetus for launching a psychedelic tell-all podcast, and what listeners can expect from the first season.
Want to dig in on some of the topics discussed today? Quick links:
Catch Season 1 of Hyphae Leaks streaming NOW wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every third Wednesday until Dec. 20. Rate, review, and subscribe!
She shares her journey with psychedelics and how they enabled her to leave a toxic job and pursue her passion for advocacy with vitality, and how important it is to focus your energy where it’s best used. She talks about where we find ourselves in the psychedelic space based on Psychedelic Science 2023, as well as her recent TV appearances and the responsibility of preaching to the non-choir. And she discusses the idea of perfectionism in today’s age; the need for psychedelic people to be involved in non-psychedelic conferences; the complications behind requiring physicians to experience psychedelics; the concept of it being malpractice for a physician to not mention psychedelic options; and the Psychedelic Medicine Association’s upcoming virtual conference: Sana Symposium 2023, which happens October 26-27.
Morski talks a lot about the importance of educating healthcare professionals about psychedelics, debunking myths, and the need for standards in training therapists and primary care providers. She highlights how there is still no nationally-recognized certification for even ketamine providers, so how can people make informed decisions on who to trust? The Psychedelic Medicine Association is taking steps to improve this paradigm, offering a new course called “Managing Medical Risk in Patients Seeking Psilocybin Therapy,” which will work to help clinicians make risk assessments for patients seeking psilocybin therapy – something that is not really being done today.
Notable Quotes
“It was just so clear that this little microdose was showing me basically what my soul was doing all the time: like, your soul is just constantly crying about this terrible toxic job that you feel you can’t leave, etc. And wow, that turned things around for me, where I was like, ‘I need to get out.’ …I was giving all these talks to doctors about if your mental health is suffering, quit that doctor job, while the whole time, my mental health was suffering and I was still in that same job. I was not taking my own advice. And this was kind of like a little psychedelic gift saying like, ‘Hey, take your own advice, do whatever you need to do, get out.’”
“Right now, the big question is: is it malpractice for me to mention psychedelics to my patients? And I envision a future where it’s malpractice not to, where you are keeping that information. Like, imagine somebody comes to you as a psychiatrist and you’re depressed and they don’t mention antidepressants? …With these PTSD findings, Phase III proving what they have: imagine in ten years, somebody goes to their psychiatrist with severe PTSD, nothing else has worked, and that psychiatrist still doesn’t recommend MDMA (assuming that it is FDA approved), that’s going to have to be malpractice. That’s the future that I envision.”
In this episode, Alexa interviews Chase Hudson: Founder of HempLucid, a premium CBD wellness brand.
Hudson discusses his journey from being a firefighter to becoming involved in the cannabis and hemp industry, the origins of HempLucid, the restrictions they faced, and their current genetics and flagship water soluble tincture. He talks about the benefits of CBD and cannabis used in conjunction with psychedelic therapy – especially ketamine-assisted therapy, which he gives to his employees as a benefit. And he talks about Lamar Odom and the documentary he executive produced, “Lamar Odom Reborn,” which chronicles how Odom came back from rock bottom through high dose CBD, iboga, and ketamine therapy.
He also discusses the idea of cannabis as a gateway drug to healing; the need for insurance to cover psychedelic therapy; the changing landscape of Utah from religious ideology to psychedelics; ketamine as the bridge between old and new models of healthcare, and more. And they talk about their own journeys a lot, with Hudson telling the story of his powerful and life-changing ibogaine treatment, and Alexa sharing stories from her tragic car accident and recovery, as well as the ketamine sessions she recently began. The conversation ultimately becomes one about the need for education and conversation to help us all climb out from decades of drug war propaganda.
Notable Quotes
“We do a lot with kids with seizures. I also do a lot of work with children with autism, and we’ve seen great results over the years. We’ve been in business seven years, so we’ve been fortunate to just see the impact and the change that happens within people personally, but then also within their family. And it’s been the most rewarding thing I’ve ever done.”
“There’s this whole frontier that is going to open up here. I mean, it’s opening now, but it’s going to be accelerated as this old guard starts to collapse. We’re living in a time where Babylon is really falling. These pillars of what reality has been structured on are failing because it’s been built on a bed of lies. Our government, our financial system, our healthcare system, our media: these structures of the matrix, essentially, are failing. And as it fails, there has to be something to kind of transition people into the new world, and that new world is everything that we’ve discussed and are doing. And it’s exciting to see, but as Terence McKenna says: we’re in the birth canal for sure, and there’s going to be blood, it’s going to be hard. But we’ll make it out, and humanity will turn into something beautiful on the other side of this.”
In this episode, David interviews East Forest: Portland, OR-based producer, podcaster, ceremony guide, and musician, specializing in ambient, electronic, contemporary classical, and indie pop music largely to guide listeners through deep journeys.
Forest discusses his live performances and influences; how his music pairs with journeys and specific psychedelics; the difference in the connection and vibe from a live performance vs. a recording; the difference between single-artist music created specifically for sessions vs. Spotify playlists; the inhumanity of generative music; his Journey Space online music and journey platform; and the challenges of making money in a time when music is more prevalent than ever, but also more in-the-background and diluted.
He talks a lot about sound itself: the role of rhythm and sound in communication and personal transformation; how richer overtones and increased layers of sound increase effects; research into very low pulsating tones, and how more synthesized sound and the growth of AI has created a yearning for more authentic, imperfect sounds.
His newest album was just released August 18: “Music For The Deck of The Titanic,” an homage to the musicians who spent their last few hours playing songs for passengers amidst the chaos and tragedy – an album Forest sees as an offering to the chaotic moment we’re all in.
Notable Quotes
“I’m trying to make music that is intended to come directly into the foreground and pass the foreground into the place where you merge with the music, and the music becomes the sonic architecture by which you are having an experience inside, and perhaps become it, synesthetically. So I want to go way beyond it being in the background. I actually want it to be even more than a guide. It’s almost like you synthesize with it as one: like who’s guiding who? There can be a magic to those experiences that’s far beyond anything I’ve ever experienced in anything else in life, and that’s really the North Star that I want to be in service to. I don’t think, even, that that’s something that I can concoct or conceive totally. It’s more opening myself up to some kind of magic that’s way beyond anything I could decide.”
“What I love about humans’ creativity is the fact that we can be creative and we can celebrate that by making things like art. When I’m surprised by art is the best feeling. And so giving people support to create: as of now, we can’t beat that. You’re just asking yourself: how far can we go in this celebration and in this experience? I have never experienced a generative experience that’s even anywhere close to where we can go with one person sharing their humanity in a way that’s beautiful. If it’s innovative, even better.”
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Join us in the Netherlands for the Kiyumí Psilocybin Retreat & Vital Training: September 6-11, 2023. Click here to learn more and apply!East Forest performing
In this episode, Joe interviews Satya Thallam: Policy Advisor at the international law firm, Arnold & Porter; and longtime policy expert based in Washington, D.C. who previously served in senior roles at both the White House and the U.S. Senate.
Thallam was the lead author and negotiator of the Federal Right to Try Act, which grants terminally ill patients access to experimental therapies and substances that have completed Phase I testing but have not yet been approved by the FDA. He discusses its intricacies and benefits, how psychedelics were not a focus but were always obvious, whether or not it allows people to grow their own mushrooms, and more. He talks abut the implementation of the first Federal legalization of hemp under the Farm Bill in 2018, breaking down the history and detail of how it came to be, and why a difference of .3% in weight truly matters when establishing law.
He discusses the changing landscape of politicians and psychedelics; how local action creates a culture of inspiring Washington; the internal fight between different agencies and the endless lobbying it takes to get things done; how one needs to cater their argument by who is listening; risk assessment and judgment-proof operations; the concern over whether or not we got everything wrong with cannabis; and why we will likely begin seeing a lot of coalitions popping up in the psychedelic space.
Notable Quotes
“All of this, even just the traditional FDA regulatory rubric, is about a trade-off between type one and type two errors. And you can set policy in such a way that there’s 0% chance of any harm, but then you forgo any possible benefits from that. There is no drug anywhere that has 0% risk. Even Advil has risk, right? It’s all about dosage, it’s all about use, it’s about other conditions that you may have, it’s about tailoring it to the appropriate indication. …We make these trade-offs all the time, and I just happen to fall more in the camp that a greater degree of those trade-offs should be at an individual level to the degree possible than establishing a macro floor or ceiling that people have to respond to, because you may forego some incredible benefits like we’re seeing – especially in some of the psychedelics here.”
“I’m reminded of that Simpsons episode where Homer just says: ‘When will people learn democracy just doesn’t work?’ Like, this is the necessary mess of democratic institutions, right? They’re not structured to listen to the single smartest person in the room. That’s by design. That’s a feature, not a bug. But it also means progress can be slow, slower than we want it to be. …I’m newish. I’m sort of a noob to the psychedelics community, but I’m not new to policy. I think the folks that you talk to that are in your circle, that listen to this show, should be pretty encouraged. I think overwhelmingly, things are going in the direction that you would want them to.”
In this episode, Kyle interviews Lisa Wessing: Clinical Psychologist and facilitator specializing in harm reduction at Kiyumí retreats in The Netherlands.
Wessing shares her personal journey and the shift from being uninspired with studying psychology to being a part of space-holding in Mexico and finding her true path. She dives into the world of Kiyumí retreats, discussing their holistic healing approach using psilocybin, somatic movement, dance expression, and other methods supporting their four pillars of embodiment, nature, mindfulness, and art. She discusses their more long-term program with Dr. Gabor Maté integrating his Compassionate Inquiry framework; their Equity Program, which offers partial or full funding for people who may not have the financial resources or who come from marginalized communities (e.g. BIPOC & Queer); and the importance of integration as a continuous process and checking in with people much later to build their “Kiyumíty.”
Much of this discussion covers the challenges of somatic psychology and facilitation in group containers: how most people are somatically illiterate and the challenging journey of becoming more somatic; what to do about someone laughing or singing in a group context; what moving into one’s body really means; and different ways of using art to integrate an experience.
As part of our Vital program, we are running a psilocybin retreat with Kiyumí from September 6-11, and we have some available spots left! If you like what you hear, you’ll be in The Netherlands in September, and want to have an amazing experience with us, click here for more info!
Notable Quotes
“Something really important is expression: self-expression and expression in community. So seeing and being seen is something also that we value. And that seeing and being seen can create awkwardness and strangeness, and it’s something that we really like to also go into, because once we break through that awkwardness, there’s so much potential of creativity amongst people.” “It’s the fostering of allowing discomfort that is just generally important in this kind of work and in self-work itself. …We live in context in which it’s all about escaping the discomfort. We want to have a really comfortable home and a great job, and our vacation has to be as comfortable as possible. And also in medicine, it’s better to take just a pill that will do the job for me. Psychedelic work is often really uncomfortable, and so the group process reflects that discomfort. So I guess one of the main missions and one of the main challenges is to present that: like, yes, you will be uncomfortable. And let’s work with that.”
In this episode, recorded in-person at Psychedelic Science 2023, Kyle interviews Senator for the Mexican Green Party, Alejandra Lagunes.
Lagunes is the first Senator in Mexico to promote the use of psychedelics, and has been organizing open parliaments to foster collaboration between researchers, scientists, politicians, and Indigenous people, culminating in a groundbreaking decriminalization initiative to decriminalize psilocybin and psilocin from list 1 to list 3 (meaning they could be prescribed), create a new chapter for entheogens (and move mushrooms there), build an economically beneficial framework for Indigenous people, protect ancestor knowledge by law, and make big bioconservation moves with changes to environmental laws.
She discusses her personal journey with depression, anxiety, and a life-saving ayahuasca journey; how Covid uncovered a crisis in meaning and an openness to talk about mental health; the need for accessibility and safety in psychedelics against challenges in politics and policy implementation; our mental health crisis and the need for innovation, education, and overcoming stigma; the influence of US drug control policies on international regulations; the power of storytelling; and why we need to go back to our origins.
Notable Quotes
“The world means to go back to the beginning, to the point of beginning. And I like to think that this psychedelic revolution or renaissance is actually going back to the beginning, to the essence. And that space: you have to talk about environment, you have to talk about the planet, you have to talk about ancestors and their relationship with the planet and with the community. …The revolution is going back to that space, outside and inside. It’s like going back to the origin.”
“The medicine is as important as the places they grow in. The medicine is in the ecosystem. You have heard about the mycelium. You can grow a mushroom in your house. That’s great. But the mycelium in those places: it’s for them, the medicine. The rain, the thunder, and the earth, the soil where the mushrooms are grown: it’s the medicine. So we have to protect those areas.”
“You know what I think all the countries should do? The World Health Organization (the WHO) has these lists of substances, and as countries, we can ask our governments to ask for a revision of those lists. So we have to start. Like, there are many ways we have to work the decriminalization. I mean, the psychedelics shouldn’t be in that list, and they are in an international list. So my question is why governments aren’t moving that list?”
In this episode, Joe interviews Stéphane Lasme, a former professional basketball player from Gabon who is now a partner at SteddeCapital, a private markets investment platform investing long-term capital into U.S.- and Africa-based opportunities across sports ownership, infrastructure, technology and plant medicine.
Lasme speaks of his childhood, growing up in Gabon with more traditional Catholic values while journeying deep into the jungle to visit his Grandmother every summer. It was there that he embraced the cultural aspect of Gabon and community, and first learned of iboga, which he had a profound experience with at age 12, and would later revisit in his basketball days. He discusses the drive and passion that led him to become the first person from Gabon to play in the NBA, and the subsequent pressure, stress, cultural differences, and “ok, what now?” moments that came at the end. He talks about Gabonese traditions; how iboga improved his stress relief and mental focus; how embracing yoga and Buddhist methods of self-discovery improved his life; scientific reductionism vs. the magic of mystery and trying to define an experience; and more.
While Gabon allows for the export of iboga, Lasme’s goal is to build a lab and treatment center in Gabon and share the power of Gabonese culture with people – so they can experience the medicine in its own country, with its traditional rituals and music. He has begun the fundraising process, and through his investment and facilitation work, is working to get African athletes to invest back into Africa and make Gabon a major destination for iboga.
Notable Quotes
“Deep inside, I wanted to be the first basketball player from Gabon to get drafted in the NBA. I never advertised this as a kid. I never advertised it to anyone. Even while I was at UMass, I never talked about it. But I know there is a relation between me going through that culture, that traditional experience, and me deciding to be that person. That’s why I say ‘me deciding who I want to be’; I think there is a big connection. And I can’t tell you or explain to you where the connection started, what triggered me thinking that way, but I just know it’s connected.”
“We have to believe in ourselves. Our stuff here, whatever we have in Gabon, is actually the shit. It’s actually the stuff that’s going to help everyone. Everyone is going to run towards us to look for solutions, so we should be prepared. We should be working on a better environment for people to come and just witness what kind of a great thing that we have going on in Gabon. This is the motivation I have today: really building this company, building this network, this ecosystem, this network of people in the states and in Gabon around this plant. That’s the main thing that motivates me.”
In this episode, Kyle interviews The Susan Hill Ward Endowed Professor of Psychedelics and Consciousness Research at Johns Hopkins, and renowned researcher of nearly 20 years: Matthew W. Johnson, Ph.D.
Recorded in-person at MAPS’ Psychedelic Science after running an 8-hour workshop on psychedelic therapy for addiction treatment, Johnson was still happy to sit down with PT to explore a wide range of topics: the under-researched concept of integration; how to best take advantage of optimal neuroplastic windows; why psycholytic therapy used to be more common; how our current protocols and research models are largely arbitrary; and his hopes for new, experimental, and flexible models of psychedelic therapy.
He also discusses his ongoing smoking cessation studies; the Oregon model (are we doing therapy or not?); misrepresentation in psychedelic therapy and knowing your lane; and the role of music in psychedelics: why shouldn’t people pick the music they know will give them goosebumps?
Notable Quotes
“How in the world could there be these beneficial effects that we can see in someone’s behavior (their substance use, their depression) 6 months, a year later from one, two, or three medication experiences that were time-limited? …People are changing the way they’re operating. And the more you start to do that, and that starts to become the new normal, so it’s not just ending at the psychedelic session or even in the explicit integration sessions where you talk about your psychedelic therapy or your psychedelic session; but then, if you put into practice – like actually changing the way you’re operating in the world and that becomes the new normal – I think that’s what’s happening to explain why we’re seeing these beneficial effects six months, a year later. It’s just kind of the causal nature of the therapeutic mechanisms unfolding over time in a kind of a living, organic way, because people are interfacing with reality in a different way, that can, if they’re doing it right, it can have a feed-forward effect, like, ‘Oh, this actually works. I feel better. I’m doing better in life when I do things more this way than the way I used to do them.’”
“The nice thing that’s probably going to happen once we get out of this phase, at least with, like, psilocybin and MDMA where it’s only in clinical approved research now, if they’re approved by the FDA for straight up treatment, FDA is not going to control what music you use or how you integrate and all these other things. And so there’s going to be this wave of naturalistic experimentation which is going to be really cool. And then hopefully people are safe, but hopefully there’s an integration of the communication of the art of the practice of medicine and psychology. It’s like just through that communication – like what tends to work, what tends not to work, people sharing ideas – I’m looking forward to that.”
She shares her journey of how she became involved in the psychedelic space through her mother, and her personal experience as a patient in a clinical trial on psilocybin for the treatment of anorexia – a much more common and deadly affliction than most people realize. She discusses her involvement with the various psychedelic gatherings surrounding Davos and the World Economic Forum, as well as the work she’s doing with Tabula Rasa and some of their clients seeking to expand insurance coverage to psychedelic-assisted therapy.
She discusses the Synthesis Institute’s recent struggles that shook up the psychedelic space, what they’re doing to save the company, how Retreat Guru has helped them, and the implications for the wider psychedelic movement. And she talks about much more: the legality and vetting process for training in Oregon and Colorado; truffles in the Netherlands vs. classic psilocybin; the idea of alcohol as poison and ‘Cali sober,’ and how can we all be more collaborative and not sling mud at each other?
Notable Quotes
“The limitations are really when you’ve been in therapy, you’ve seen a nutritionist for five, ten years; you have all the tools there, you know what you’re supposed to do (this can be applied to things like depression or anxiety or any other mental issue), but those neural pathways that have been connecting and forming with those negative thought patterns for decades: for people, they’re not going to undo themselves. It takes more motivation than I have ever had to break my cycles, and I really felt stuck. I don’t think I was going to ever get better than I was at the time without something like psychedelics.”
“It could set the temperature for a lot of other psychedelic organizations and movements to say, ‘This isn’t working and let me show you why. If this goes up in flames, then what else is possible?’ And the space is already greatly under-funded and financiers look at this and they’re like, ‘I’m not touching that with a ten foot pole. This is too early, or this is too risky, or X, Y, and Z.’ So that was really the scary part of the first few weeks of what this meant for the movement at large: if we can’t pull it off, then who can?”
“This whole thing has been like a great big psychedelic trip: use our learning towards being a facilitator, towards facilitating ourselves through this chaos. There has to be chaos within to give birth to a dancing star, I think is what Nietzsche said. We’ll be that dancing star.”
He talks about how an early interest in lucid dreaming sent him down a psychedelic path, and how, as his interest in mushrooms has grown, he’s watched the culture shift from a narrative of mycophobia to one of appreciation and interest. With FreshCap Mushrooms and The Mushroom Show, he aims to provide much needed education around this vast and mysterious world of fungi.
He talks about the thriving psilocybin scene in Jamaica, and how, through filming a documentary there, he learned how much communities still don’t know about mushrooms, how much tourism supports the country, and how much of a special vibe Jamaica has for psilocybin retreats.
And he discusses much more: why lion’s mane should help with concussions and TBIs; indications mushrooms could heal, from long Covid to paralysis; concerns over over-medicalization; why Terence McKennas’ ideas weren’t as crazy as many thought; visiting mushroom shops in Canada; the secret language of mushrooms; where psychedelic people can start to learn about functional mushrooms; and why, if he could embody any mushroom, it’d be cordyceps.
Notable Quotes
“We draw these arbitrary lines as human beings between: psychedelic mushrooms are over here, functional mushrooms are over here, and poisonous mushrooms are over here. But the mushrooms don’t do that. It’s just a spectrum where they’re creating all these crazy compounds for all these different reasons and they just happen to interact with our bodies in different ways.”
“It’s not just that they change your consciousness or make you see colors or make you laugh or whatever; they do seem to have this ability to dig out very specific things or show you things in a different way that can have really profound impacts on your life afterwards. And that’s something I think we still haven’t figured out, is like: how the hell did mushrooms do that? How do they know how to find exactly what you might need to be dealing with? Not always, but they have this ability to be like, ‘Hey, here’s something you haven’t thought about in 20 years. This is important. You should look at this.’ I still can’t get over how amazing that is and how that works.”
“I thought, ‘Okay, the reason why people are going down here is just because they forgot to make it illegal and it just provided this weird niche opportunity in the world for people to go and experience mushrooms.’ But it’s way more than that. Jamaica is a very special, magical place. …The fact that they grow there, it’s just a vibe. It’s a whole thing, and I can see why. I can see why people would want to go there for psilocybin therapy or the psilocybin retreat experience, just because number one: it takes you away from your normal kind of day-to-day life, but there is something special about sitting in front of the ocean as the sun is going down in a beautiful location and feeling that profound impact of mushrooms at the same time. It’s a very special place.”
In this episode, recorded on the eve of MAPS’ Psychedelic Science 2023, Kyle interviews MAPS’ Founder and President, Rick Doblin, Ph.D.
He begins with an overview of the fast-approaching (and largest ever) psychedelics conference, emphasizing its significant growth, many features, and bipartisan opening ceremony, then discusses MAPS’ soon-to-be-released confirmatory Phase III data on MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD, which should set the stage for legal MDMA and the increasing need for trained psychedelic therapists.
As the FDA is requiring studies on adolescents, he discusses this sensitive issue and questions why it’s so controversial, since teenage years are often closer to both trauma and a more malleable brain, Indigenous traditions certainly didn’t have age limits, and honest drug education – something that is absolutely necessary to fight the backlash against this quickly growing field – teaches us that it’s not the substance; it’s our relationship to it. Could not having these rites of passage be hurting us?
He also discusses the natural vs. synthetic conflict; breathwork; whether or not cannabis is truly damaging to young minds; Federal rescheduling vs. state rescheduling; why it’s controversial to give therapists MDMA in training; Gul Dolen’s work with reopening critical periods; psychedelics in couples therapy; and much more.
Notable Quotes
“We have been just astonished at the fact that we now have 11,500 people registered for this conference, and we, in our wildest dreams, thought maybe we’d get up to 10,000. But even that was just like a wild dream. The largest psychedelic conference that’s ever happened was our Psychedelic Science in 2017. …Now we’re almost four times as big. It’s a whole different cultural moment, and what I didn’t fully anticipate is how this conference would be like a magnet for the entire community.”
“I think the proper training of psychedelic therapists is different than the proper training of psychiatrists to administer any kind of pharmacological drugs, because for psychiatry; when they give SSRIs or they give other kinds of medications or they give electroconvulsive therapy or whatever: those are meant to be the treatments. In our case, the treatment is really the human relationship – the therapy – and then the psychedelics make the therapy more effective. And so it makes the most sense for people that are interested in doing psychedelic therapy, for them to have the experience of the psychedelics themselves. As we start to scale, there’s a lot of experienced trauma therapists, but they might not be experienced psychonauts, and it’s hard to describe what a drug does.”
“When you think about these rites of passage, that when you’re an adolescent or early in college, those are the ripe times for people to sort of explore: who are they? Where do they fit into the larger world? I think in many Indigenous cultures, that’s the time of initiation for a lot of people, so I think we have hurt ourselves tremendously. Now, you hear this always about marijuana: ‘kids [have] developing brains and they shouldn’t ever try marijuana.’ And I think the thing is that overuse is a problem. Daily use before you go to school: all that is a problem. It makes it difficult to learn, things like that. But we tend to make sweeping statements like ‘never use.’”
In this episode, Joe interviews Sarko Gergerian, MS, MHC, CARC: a police peer support, community outreach, and health-fitness officer; founding member of the Community and Law Enforcement Assisted Recovery Program (C.L.E.A.R.); and psychotherapist trained in ketamine- and MDMA-assisted psychotherapy.
Any regular listener of the show should be familiar with how passionately Joe is against the drug war and the resulting policing of what many of us feel should be legal, so this in-person conversation with a police officer who seems to mostly be on our side is pretty refreshing to hear.
Gergerian discusses his entry into the force in his 30s, and what it was like to bring in a healthy “why is this illegal?” viewpoint on drug use and personal agency vs. the slow moving attitudes he saw in much of law enforcement. He talks about how working nightclub security taught him about safe spaces; the problems with officers not proactively moving on actionable information and building relationships with communities; and the very philosophy behind law enforcement: what do they hope to accomplish, do they want to make real change, and do they believe in the laws they’re enforcing?
And they discuss so much more: the need for diversity, cultural competency, and broadness in perspective; the criminalization of self-directed behavior; the effect critical incidents have on officers; drug war paranoia, legitimate concerns over hotlines and sensitive data, and psychedelic culture’s relationships with police; creating a culture of harm reduction within law enforcement, and what it might look like for police officers to receive psychedelic therapy.
Notable Quotes
“I think we, as a country, are more powerful by being diverse, and that includes diverse ways of thinking and that includes diverse ways of coming at challenges. And the more diverse our police departments are – I believe this with all my heart – the stronger we are for it. The stronger policing is for it. And I’m talking all types of diversity. …If we can diversify not only ways of thinking in police, but have a diversity of education and background in policing, then we’ll see some magic happen. Then we’ll see some creativity in how we respond to these very human problems that we all experience.”
“Keeping people alive has to be primary. If you don’t have a person that’s alive, you don’t have the possibility of recovery. So we’re tasked with watching out for one another, making sure people are alive, and whatever relationship they have with intoxicating substances: that’s their personal story, and they’re going to get to their healing journey and their recovery from any out-of-balance relationship in due time – their time.”
“I’ve been trained in [ketamine] and I was able to access it, so I’ve experienced it [at] very low dose (intermuscular). Magical. Magical. And the after effect for a couple of weeks, the reprieve, the relaxed feeling: it was beautiful. It was beautiful. And why shouldn’t our officers who are getting dark be able to access that before they’re pegged with depression? …Why shouldn’t they be able to access that before they put the barrel of the gun in their mouth, by themselves in their police cruiser? Why? Because you need a diagnostic label to access self-care? It makes absolutely no sense to me.”
In this episode, Joe interviews one of the world’s leading experts on human performance: New York Times bestselling author and Executive Director of the Flow Research Collective, Steven Kotler.
Kotler’s work explores the neurobiology of peak human performance, flow states, and aging, and the concept of getting our biology to work for us rather than against us in our later years, by using the parts of our brains that expand in our 50s, combined with neuroplasticity, learning by play, and the biggest factor: working toward a very difficult – but not impossible – task. His 30-year exploration of the neurobiology behind people accomplishing ‘impossible’ feats led him to test his theories by teaching himself to park ski at 53 with resounding success, then using his protocol with people up to 70 years old the next season. The story is told in his newest book about challenging tired concepts of aging, Gnar Country.
He discusses the power of flow states and how much flow actually amplifies productivity, motivation, wisdom, empathy, and more; why dynamic motion is a key activity for greater longevity and why skiing and similar action sports are some of the best examples; why dynamic activity in novel environments is even better; why changing one’s mindset may be the biggest factor toward change; why corporations are looking at flow training and where these concepts could go in the future; and of course, how this all relates to psychedelics.
Notable Quotes
“If you study flow science, it turns out that flow is really great at helping us go from zero up to Superman. It’s also really great at helping us go from seriously subpar, ‘I’m completely broken and sick’ back to normal. And it turns out this combination is phenomenal in the second half of our lives. And flow sits at the heart of peak performance aging.”
“The only way I can go [from] A to B with this is to take everything I know about flow science and peak performance and see if I can use it to accomplish this so-called impossible task. So that’s what the book is. And yes, I was obviously very successful. I went 0 to 60, as I said, in a single season. It was the fastest I’ve ever actually learned anything.”
“The place you’ve got to begin is mindset. The mind-body connection gets tighter and tighter and tighter over time, and it plays a significant role in aging and peak performance aging. Mindset is the greatest example. …A positive mindset towards aging – ‘I am thrilled with the second half of my life; my best days are ahead of me’ – translates to an additional eight years of healthy longevity. It’s wild. …You could be morbidly obese and have a shitty mindset towards aging. Change your mindset, you’ll live longer. Don’t lose weight. Change your mindset. It’s more important. In fact, changing your mindset is more important than quitting smoking for healthy longevity.”
In this episode, David interviews Dr. Gabrielle Lehigh: Co-Founder and Managing Director of Psychedelic Grad, a web-based community serving as an educational and career hub for up-and-coming psychedelic professionals; and the host of the related podcast, “Curious to Serious,” where she speaks with students and professionals about the path they took to land in the psychedelic field.
Lehigh recently earned her Ph.D. with research on something not many are looking at: the stories behind powerful and transformative psychedelic experiences specifically at music events, based on 38 interviews and over 500 surveys mostly collected at day-long festivals in the southern United States. While the goal was largely data collection in support of the clear potential for therapeutic benefit in using psychedelics in recreational settings (as many of us who have experienced this can attest), she was surprised to learn how many people still blindly trust dealers; how much festival security can affect safety; how the community often makes more of a difference than the music itself; and how many parallels exist between colder clinical models of psychedelic-assisted therapy and the completely open festival experience.
She discusses how she found her way from environmental justice to psychedelics; what people are most looking for on Psychedelic Grad; why she chose to use the word “transformative” in her research; what music she has had her best experiences with; why psychonauts shouldn’t forget about Pink Floyd; and much more.
Notable Quotes
“I went to my advisor at the time and I said, ‘Listen, I want to change the direction that I’ve been going in.’ I’m like, ‘I either want to study the anthropology of space colonization,’ (which is so out there) ‘or I want to study psychedelics.’ And my advisor was like, ‘Neither one of those is anywhere near what you were studying before. What happened?’”
“I can be somewhat frustrated sometimes when, from the clinical setting, there’s this idea that recreational use has no benefit for people, because I’ve seen it from other people’s experiences, [and] there have been experiences that I’ve had in those types of recreational settings that have been incredibly beneficial for me. Even when I started taking psychedelics, even though I was taking them at home; it wasn’t clinical, it wasn’t medical, it wasn’t necessarily therapeutic as defined by ‘therapeutic,’ so it was still considered recreational. So I was just really frustrated in seeing repeated notions that recreational isn’t necessarily beneficial. And so I set out to be like: well, if it’s not beneficial, then maybe we should go check it out and see what’s really going on.”
“When we think about the clinical setting, when we look at the MAPS protocol and everything, music is a part of it. But in the interviews, people talked about the value of live music. There’s something special and something unique about music being created in the moment, and you, as a spectator, are part of the creation of that music, and there’s something really special going on there. …It’s the music, and it’s not just the music as the music, it’s this live production of the music. There’s some type of magic in it.”
In this episode, Kyle interviews the Reverend Dr. Brian Rajcok, Lead Pastor at St. Matthew Lutheran Church in Avon, Connecticut, who recently completed his Ph.D. in pastoral counseling.
Rajcok dives into the intersection of spirituality, religion, mysticism, and how psychedelics bring these topics together, discussing a transformative peyote ceremony and the awe-inspiring moments of surrender, connection, and divine presence that left a lasting impact on him and deepened his connection to God. And he talks about his recently completed dissertation that was inspired by it all: “The Lived Experience of Professional Mental Health Clinicians With Spiritually Significant Psychedelic Experiences,” which he created to gauge the relationship between religious spiritual commitment, tolerance, and multicultural counselor competency. He shares stories from the study and reflections on how these experiences have changed the way involved clinicians work.
And he discusses much more in the realm of psychedelics and religion: why he pursued pastoral counseling and how psychedelics come into play; the balance between tradition and reason and spiritual commitment and tolerance; the legal and regulatory considerations of religious psychedelic use; the concept of a faith quadrilateral; the need for psychedelic experiences in counseling training programs; the big question of ‘when is it religion and when is it mental health care?’; and how the future of psychedelic spirituality could be humanity’s biggest evolution.
Notable Quotes
“There were moments in the night where I felt like I was looking at the fire, having a feeling of being in Hell. And then there was this shift of when I said, ‘Okay, if I’m in Hell, accept that.’ And then I accepted that, and then there was this total emotional shift to like, ‘Wow, now I’m in Heaven!’ It was just this beautiful experience of accepting the worst, and then once that work was done, it shifted into this beautiful experience. That was a very profound moment for me.”
“People who are more religiously committed tend to have a reputation for being less tolerant, and people who are the most tolerant tend to have a reputation of being the least committed. But I think that what we see from people who have (whether it’s psychedelic experiences or naturally occurring) mystical experiences, there’s a level of religious spiritual commitment and tolerance at the same time that increases. So that was one thing that I wanted to explore.”
“That was another really profound one: people who experienced different spirit guides; experiences of the divine; encounters with deceased relatives was another one; there was someone who was not a Christian who had an experience with Jesus. So there’s a lot of these profound encounters. …And they’re so healing that it’s obvious that there’s something good going on here. It’s not just your imagination running wild, there’s a real [connection] to the spirit realm or to whatever other dimensions of reality, and it’s such a mystery, but it’s clear that there’s something real going on.”
In this episode, David interviews Dr. Rosalind Watts: famed clinical psychologist, former clinical lead on Imperial College London’s first Psilocybin for Depression trial, and Founder of ACER Integration.
She discusses the awakening she had after having a child; her work at Imperial College and realizing the importance of staying in touch with patients; the challenges of balancing her work with being a mother; her ACER integration model and the interconnectedness of trees in a forest; how the Watts Connectedness Scale works (and David fills it out); and how much the outside-the-hype surrounding pieces matter – the therapy, the therapeutic relationship, the lessons learned, and the work done to integrate it all.
And she talks about another moment of awakening, at last year’s Psych Summit conference, where capitalism’s obsession with profit-over-care frameworks and “magic bullet” and “brain reset” narratives was on full display, which fully enforced what she hopes for in the future: a world where we embrace non-clinical, ceremonial, and nature-based practices; with healing centers (psychedelic and non); supportive communities; infrastructure around conflict resolution and restorative justice; and a shift towards collectivism and collaboration – and how that all starts by finding our psychedelic elders.
Notable Quotes
“I’m a tourist. I’m listening, I’m learning, but I know that I don’t have deep roots and that there are people that do. So it ties into that thing about finding the elders: as we find our elders for conflict resolution and for therapy and for healing and for psychedelic healing, I also hope we find the elders who are deeply rooted in Indigenous traditions, from Indigenous traditions all over the world, and that they can teach us and teach me, if they will, those stories and those ways, and that then, my daughter: if she can learn through her life, she can grow up with it in a way that I didn’t – so she can have deep roots in that tradition.”
“When we’re on the riverbank and we’ve had our cup of tea and we’ve warmed by the fire, we can look upstream and think: all the people that are coming down the river, what might they need? And then we can kind of run and chuck them the blankets or a chocolate biscuit or the things that they might need, or just shout to them and say, ‘Hey, you’re doing great. It’s crazy out there, there’s a riverbank soon. You can come and sit and join us.’ So it’s like, it’s also about thinking of what’s next for us, but also thinking of all the people that are coming and how we can support each other on the rapids as well.”
In this episode, Joe interviews Oliver Carlin, Founder of Curative Mushrooms, a grow kit solution company designed to produce mushrooms of one’s choosing within 30 days with little effort and no growing experience.
Carlin tells his personal story of 20 years in the Navy to a 7g psilocybin journey and the work of perfecting these grow bags; how a grow bag works; how easy it can be to grow your own mushrooms; the advantages of growing your own mushrooms vs. buying them; the legalities of grow kits and how he has been able to do this; steps growers can take to reduce their legal risks; the variety of people benefitting from mushrooms (especially in the veteran community); and how growing your own mushrooms seems to make the experience more curated and special.
Curative Mushrooms recently hired someone to create new strains for them every month, they do bimonthly live Q&As for people interested in growing, and they ship a bonus mycology book with each kit that shows how to study spores. They offer growing kits for Lion’s Mane, Turkey Tail, and Shiitake mushrooms, but his most popular option is the “All-in-One Happy Mushrooms for Sad People” kit.
Notable Quotes
“I do believe there’s always going to be a market for growers, because it’s just fun. And you can create your own strains of mushrooms if you really get into it. I mean, you can even name strains after yourself. And plus, isn’t it cool to grow your own, because now you have super fresh mushrooms, you know exactly what it is, how fresh, it’s going to be the most potent because you just grew it, and I’ll be honest, when you grow your own, it feels like the mushrooms were, like, grown specifically for you. I don’t know, there’s something special about them.”
“I didn’t take mushrooms because I was specifically doing it to overcome depression or anything like that. The reason I took mushrooms was: it was like answering questions about the world that I’ve always wanted to know. I’ve always had a problem with everything I’ve been told, and this was my opportunity to finally get some type of an answer for things that I didn’t understand. And that was my reason. And it completely changed my life.”
In this episode, David interviews Dr. Roberta Murphy: training medical psychotherapist and member of the Imperial Centre for Psychedelic Research.
This is a rare impromptu podcast, recorded about a half hour after David heard Murphy speaking on a panel at UK’s Breaking Convention conference. He asked her if she wanted to be on the podcast sometime, and before they knew it, they were recording. Fastest turnaround ever?
She discusses her past research and what she’s doing at Imperial College; her work on a psilocybin for depression trial; her hopes for psychedelics treating people with Parkinson’s; and her recent co-written paper on the ARC Framework (Access, Reciprocity and Conduct), where she will be focusing strongly on the Conduct aspect through her work at Imperial.
And she talks about her other paper exploring the impact of one of the more important aspects of therapy: the therapeutic alliance on the psychedelic experience. How does the treatment dynamic between the therapist and the client impact the outcome (and course) of the therapy, and what determines whether it’s neutral, negative, positive, or very positive?
Notable Quotes
“It makes sense in a way that you might need to kind of work through those mistrust feelings before you get into a deeper layer, and then in the next session they were able to (I think because they felt a bit safer with us) let go and have a bit more of a typical psychedelic experience where they visualized things and saw things. …I think that that can often then be mistaken as resistance or like nothing’s happening. But there’s always something happening, it’s just sometimes it’s a little bit more nuanced or a little bit harder to pick up and work with. But there’s always something happening. You just might have to zoom in a bit to see it.”
“There’s a difference between a challenging experience that occurs, is processed, and worked through vs. a challenging experience where people kind of never really work with it, it doesn’t get processed, and they get quite stuck in it. …I do think that if you have a good container of a therapeutic relationship, it can help you to work through and process, and I think if you don’t have that, it’s more likely that you’ll end up with something a bit stuck, because I think in order to process, you often need to go in and go deep. And if you don’t feel safe to do that, you’re just going to kind of float on the edge, in a way, and never quite get through.”
In this episode, Alexa interviews Rachel Clark: Education Manager for DanceSafe, a public health nonprofit specializing in serving people who use drugs and their communities.
As we move into the prime festival season, more people are going to be doing drugs, and the importance of harm reduction and drug testing becomes even more central to the experience. She discusses the complications of drug testing and how it’s more of an act of ruling substances out rather than determining purity; the fentanyl problem and its surrounding myths; how to identify and treat an overdose (and what not to do); Philadelphia’s struggles with Xylazine highlighting the problem with regional cross contamination; and DanceSafe’s “We Love Consent” and “Healing is Power” campaigns, which aim to open up the dialogue of true harm reduction and safe spaces outside of the substance alone.
Check out DanceSafe.org for more info, and use this link when you’re ready to make a purchase!
Notable Quotes
“You’re looking for red flags and not green lights. You’re not looking for confirmation that something is in your substance, you’re looking for a red flag about whether something is obviously or potentially not what you expected.” “The three major symptoms of opioid overdose are very, very slow, shallow, and or stopped breathing, reduced or absent consciousness, and pinpoint/constricted pupils. And I want everyone to understand that the cause of opioid overdose is when your respiration, your breathing slows to the point that your tissues are not being oxygenated and perfused and your heart stops. That is the sequence. …If people understood that this is about a lack of oxygen because your breathing is too slow, I think that the public understanding of fentanyl overdose and opioid overdose would change a lot, because that, in and of itself, gives you a lot of information when you’re looking at someone and evaluating if an opioid could be involved.”
“Always communicate the limitations of what you know. Assume that you are missing information, because you are. And when you are reporting on something that you witnessed, share only what you saw and what you did, including timelines. This is a major, major note for anybody, especially people who work in EMS, because there have been a lot of very well-intentioned folks who have ended up spreading misinformation like wildfire by saying things as certainties instead of sharing observations.”
In this episode of Psychedelics Weekly, Joe and Alexa reminisce about last week’s Psychedelic Science 2023, dubbed as the largest psychedelic conference in history.
They discuss Joe’s twoPsychedelic Morning Shows with Anne Philippi; Court Wing, Bob Wold, and the work of Clusterbusters and the new Psychedelics and Pain Association; Tracey Tee and her “Millions of Moms” gathering; Aaron Rodgers and athletes’ growing interest in psychedelics; the legality of mushroom growing kits; and the fun and overwhelming atmosphere of such a massive event. And as Alexa had her first breathwork session, they dig more into breathwork, serving as somewhat of a follow-up to our breathwork episode a few weeks ago.
They also talk about a short film they came across called “Open Up,” which looks at the party lifestyle of always seeking a new high, the potential of ketamine abuse, and what can happen when people don’t talk about their problems.
In this episode, David interviews Professor Celia Morgan, Ph.D., who holds the Chair of Psychopharmacology and co-leads the Transdisciplinary Psychedelics Group at The University of Exeter.
This was recorded on the dawn of UK’s Breaking Convention conference, where Morgan was speaking about the therapeutic potential of ketamine as well as the danger of people developing a dependence on it. She touches on that topic, but largely discusses her current Phase III Trial for ketamine-assisted therapy for the treatment of severe alcohol use disorder (also called the KARE model (Ketamine for reduction of Alcohol Relapse)), a collaboration with Awakn Life Sciences.
She discusses her other research: studies on mindfulness intervention before and after ketamine, epigenetic changes after ayahuasca use, the antidepressant qualities of ayahuasca, and CBD for cannabis dependence. And she talks about the necessary balance for making treatments amazing but affordable; how connecting with nature during integration is key; how the drug is just a tool, yet we focus on it too much; and how we need studies on how different therapies work with different substances.
Notable Quotes
“People always focus on the drugs, but it’s more about the people, and as you say, their relationship – what you’re getting from that experience. The drugs themselves are just tools. You can hit someone over the head with a spade, but you can dig an amazing garden. I see the drugs as the spade, basically, but obviously a really unusual spade.”
“Taking a step back from your thoughts and not being over-engaged with everything you’re doing; the ketamine really helps to facilitate that, because they can see how that works. Mindfulness can be really tricky. Mindfulness practice is hard work. So I see this as a big step that makes it work better in that first bit, especially when people are struggling. …Ketamine, to my mind, gives this kind of boost and insight that can help engage them with the therapy going forward.”
In the second episode of our special, two-part series, the Psychedelic Morning Show, Joe Moore and Anne Philippi are live once again bright and early from Psychedelic Science 2023 in Denver. Listen to this podcast as they interview four guests working on the front lines of psychedelic research, law, and the treatment of chronic pain.
Guests for this episode include:
Tommaso Barba – PhD candidate at Centre for Psychedelic Research, Imperial College London
Allison Hoots – Attorney at Hoots Law Practice and advocate; President of Sacred Plant Alliance
Psychedelics Today is reporting live this week from the industry event of the year, Psychedelic Science 2023 in Denver. Listen in to this podcast as our co-founder, Joe Moore, and New Health Club founder Anne Philippi hit the conference floor bright and early in the first episode of a special two-part series, the Psychedelic Morning Show.
In this limited series, Joe and Anne chat in real-time with guests working in all corners of the psychedelic ecosystem, from advocacy, law and finance, to research and therapy.
Guests for this episode include:
Dr. Julie Holland – Psychiatrist, psychedelic researcher, author and medical advisor for MAPS
Daniel Goldberg – Co-Founder and Principal at Bridge Investments & Palo Santo
Hadas Alterman – Director of Government Affairs | American Psychedelic Practitioners Association
Melissa Lavasani – Founder and Chief Executive Officer at Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, Founder and President of Psychedelic Medicine PAC
In this episode, David interviews Frederick Barrett, Ph.D.: cognitive neuroscientist, Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, and now, Director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic & Consciousness Research.
With today’s news, Barrett officially takes over for the legendary Roland Griffiths, who has been in the role since the Center’s launch in 2019, and who will continue on as a member of the leadership team while dealing with the Stage 4 cancer diagnosis he has been remarkably candid about in recent interviews.
Dr. Barrett has been conducting research at Johns Hopkins for a decade, authoring or co-authoring some of the first studies on psilocybin’s enduring effects, and receiving the first federally funded human psychedelic research grant from the NIH since the 70s. He discusses the work and importance of Roland Griffiths; the history of the Center and current research he’s most excited about; the mystery of consciousness; and the power and sacredness of music: how we all use music to regulate our emotions, and how he wants to explore the brain mechanisms behind that connection.
Notable Quotes
“I came here in 2013, kind of starry-eyed and still a little green behind the ears, and I thought music is a great tool to study the mind, but psychedelic drugs must be such a more powerful tool to study the mind and the brain, and essentially that’s what’s driven me since. I see psychedelics, music, brain imaging, cognitive testing, qualitative interviews, questionnaires: all these things are all different types of tools in the kitchen of trying to study the mind. And that’s what motivates me; is really just trying to use whatever tools we have access to to understand this complex experience that we have as humans.”
“Roland has been one of the most influential and important mentors of my life, and he has mentored each of the faculty within the Psychedelic Research Center. …But his impact on the psychedelic world, I think, can’t be understated. He’s just a remarkable man. He is so precise and careful and piercing with his thinking, but yet so clear in being able to articulate complex ideas and really the most interesting and important nuggets of a finding. …I think that’s one of the reasons that he’s been a leading figure in psychedelic research, and I think those are some of the reasons that he was able to pull this off to begin with.”
“If you think of all of the variables that you can try to push around to manipulate set and setting, it’s not just a couple dials; it’s like a church organ. It’s like a concert organ, and I think that music is one of the biggest keys that we can press on, so I’m going to start pressing on it.”
In this edition of Psychedelics Weekly, Joe and Kyle dedicate the entire episode to one of their biggest passions: breathwork and the power of breath in reaching non-ordinary states of consciousness.
What many listeners may not know is that Psychedelics Today was created because of the lack of attention being paid to breathwork, transpersonal psychology, and the work of Stanislav Grof, so this episode serves as a deep dive into all the facets of our fascinating ability to reach psychedelic states simply by breathing in specific ways.
They discuss the history of breathwork; the various methods (box breathing, alternate nostril breathing, rebirthing breathwork, the Wim Hof method, Holotropic and Transpersonal breathwork, etc.); early and most powerful experiences; why Joe recommends becoming familiar with breathwork before a first psychedelic experience; how a breathwork practice can help enhance psychedelic experiences; and one of the most amazing things about breathwork: that it can give people a sense of agency they may never have felt before – that they can produce these experiences and insights with nothing but their own bodies.
If you’ve been curious about breathwork, this episode is a great starting point to learn more. And if you’re in the Northeast and are ready to attend a breathwork retreat and experience four Transpersonal breathwork sessions (two as a breather, two as a sitter), there are spots available in our upcoming Vital retreat on July 28 in Pennsylvania. Click here for more details.
June 20 in Denver: “Better Together: Stacking Mushrooms and Plants” – A communal conversation around mushrooms, a fungi feast and unique culinary experience, and afterparty featuring music from BOSA. Click here to buy tickets.
In this episode, Kyle interviews Liana Gillooly: Strategic Initiatives Officer at MAPS, Board Chair & Founder of the non-profit, North Star, and Advisor to Chacruna’s Indigenous Reciprocity Initiative.
While she talks about updates in MAPS’ world and how to manage and scale a rapidly growing industry while trying to change a system from the inside, she mostly talks about what she, the rest of MAPS, and a lot of the psychedelic space in general are most excited about right now: Psychedelic Science 2023, the largest psychedelic conference in history, beginning next week in Denver.
She discusses the growth of the conference; why they chose Denver as a location; and how programming has changed over the years to embrace the multiplicity of identities inside the psychedelic space, including much more business content, a culture stage that focuses on how psychedelics interact with the mainstream, various programs put on by community partners, pre- and post- workshops covering an array of topics, and an area they’re calling Deep Space, which was designed to help attendees get out of their heads and more into their bodies.
If you were thinking of attending, this episode should serve as a great inspiration to finally buy a ticket. When you do, be sure to use code PT15 to get 15% off your purchase, and when you’re there, visit us at booth 834 Wednesday through Friday. Joe is hosting a Psychedelic Morning Show with Anne Philippi on Thursday and Friday, and we’re partnering with Lounge CashoM, an all-inclusive environment designed to be a decompression space from that big conference energy. Email hello@cashom.org for more info, click here for tickets (use password MotherEarth to access tickets, and code PT20 for 20% off), click here for our guide on events we’re most excited about, and click here for a full guide of afterparties and events.
Notable Quotes
“I was 22 in 2010 when I attended the MAPS conference, and it completely changed the trajectory of my life and opened me into understanding that it was possible to have a career working in psychedelics (which was such a foreign concept back then). So when I think about what I’m most excited about, it’s the people. It’s bringing together our global community, and it’s what can come from the magic of an event; of being in connection with one another, of all the little collisions that happen and all the ways that we discover how we can support each other and work together to make this field the best that it can be.”
“All these really big topics of our time that people are interested in and chatting about: if you just flip over the rock, there you will find people who have been directly inspired by and impacted by psychedelics.”
“There’s no escaping the reality that we’re all connected. So rather than trying to dip out and create private utopias, I’m more interested in understanding how to engage with what is, and invite it into the more beautiful world that our hearts know is possible.”
In this episode, David interviews Alex Belser, Ph.D.: clinical scientist; author; licensed psychologist; Co-Investigator for a psilocybin and OCD study at Yale University; and co-creator of the EMBARK approach, a new model of psychedelic-assisted therapy that focuses on six clinical domains that typically arise during psychedelic experiences.
He is also one of the editors of Queering Psychedelics: From Oppression to Liberation in Psychedelic Medicine, the new anthology from Chacruna featuring 38 essays from queer authors and allies looking at the heteronormative aspects of psychedelic culture and psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, self-acceptance, psychedelics and pleasure, and ways the queer community can become allies with other groups. As they serendipitously recorded this episode on June 1, it only made sense to celebrate Pride Month by releasing it now, as well as launching a giveaway, where you can win one of five copies of Queering Psychedelics.
Belser talks about the concurrent emergence of the psychedelic and queer communities; the need to research the effects of transphobia and homophobia in psychedelic work (as well as the internalized phobias often realized during an experience); why it’s more important than ever to talk about the psychedelic space’s dark past with conversion therapy; why the Mystical Experiences Questionnaire needs to be updated; the idea of queer people being boundary walkers; recreating the Good Friday Experiment, the immense importance of long-form interviews and other forms of qualitative research, the power of love and community, and the question: how does anyone not want to change after a powerful psychedelic experience?
Notable Quotes
“When we talk about MK-Ultra and we talk about the abuses of boundary transgressions and sexual transgressions, we also need to be talking about how psychedelics have been used to harm people through conversion therapy and how they have repeatedly been used in this way. If we don’t look to our past and what’s happening currently, then I don’t think we’re ever going to have a truly integral reckoning with how we carry these medicines in ethical ways.”
“I spoke with an Orthodox Priest who said, ‘Before, I used to give sermons to my congregation and I would talk about God’s justice: the justice of the lord.’ And now, after taking psychedelics (he had a really powerful experience), he says, ‘All I want to talk about is God’s love.’”
“[The EMBARK model is] open architecture. It’s multidimensional, but it allows for the therapist to bring in their existing skill sets, and it allows for a patient-centered approach to what might actually emerge or arise, because I don’t think there’s one path for psychedelic healing. What we see are multiple trajectories, and we needed to build a comprehensive theoretical framework for psychotherapy that allows for different expressions of that for different people.”
“I don’t think psychedelics are a panacea or cure-all, but I think that they help us experiment with different ways of being together, and it doesn’t have to be one way. That’s what I’ve learned; it really does not have to be one way, and it does not have to be the old way.”
In this episode of Psychedelics Weekly, Joe and Kyle are once again able to take advantage of Kyle’s temporary Colorado residency and record together in Joe’s office.
While last week focused on the numerous challenges facing a rapidly growing industry of psychedelic therapists, facilitators, and guides, the topic of therapy itself is put under the microscope this week, as they dissect a New York Times article titled, “Does Therapy Really Work? Let’s Unpack That.” They discuss whether or not therapy is right for everyone, the efficacy of different types of therapy, the role of the therapeutic alliance in treatment outcomes, and how (if it’s even possible) to measure all of these factors.
They also discuss:
-a study showing that ketamine was more effective than ECT (electroconvulsive therapy) for patients with treatment-resistant depression;
-the potential benefits of the LSD analog, Br-LSD, in treating people with major depressive disorders, cluster headaches, and more;
-Ireland’s Health Service Executive launching the Safer Nightlife program, which will partner with music festivals this summer to establish on-site drug testing;
-the U.S. slowly beginning to legalize fentanyl test strips, which, for some reason, are illegal in many parts of the country;
and much more!
See you next week, and if you’re in the NYC area, make sure to check out “Tales of Transformation,” an in-person event Thursday, June 8 at the Athenæum, moderated by David, and featuring Ifetayo Harvey, Juliana Mulligan, and Raad Seraj.
In this episode, Joe interviews the Co-Founders of Enosis Therapeutics: researcher and scientist, Agnieszka Sekula; and psychiatrist, clinical advisor to the Australian Psychedelic Society, and leading Australian advocate for psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, Dr. Prash P.
Enosis Therapeutics is a medtech startup that began with the question: how can we use VR – with or without psychedelics – to improve mental health outcomes? They feel that the biggest problem with powerful psychedelic experiences is that, once you’re back in reality, it’s oddly difficult to remember the insights and new ideas that were so clear during the experience, and even harder to make connections that lead to concrete change. They believe that the immersive nature of VR and the novelty of unique VR environments creates a sense of presence that can’t be recreated otherwise – a liminal, in-between state that’s just different enough to allow the patient to feel like they’re back in that non-ordinary state, and therefore more able to anchor their experience and begin to find connections and more clearly understand newfound insights.
This all happens by the user essentially creating nonlinear, abstract, multi-sensory VR paintings while describing what they remembered; allowing them to revisit these worlds later, bring in therapists (or anyone else) to work inside these environments, and hear their own voice describing what happened, thereby creating a mental map that can be worked with in completely unique ways.
They talk about the conflict between new technologies and traditionalists; the problems with moving away from psychoanalysis and not treating psychotherapy as a process; how VR could improve the efficacy of therapy (and improve therapists’ lives); how it could replace models of repeated dosage; how VR could generate analytics to actually quantify success in mental health treatment; and how (whether psychedelics are used or not) culture needs to bring the psychedelic way of thinking to mental health.
Notable Quotes
“Imagine that you build out that network, that you make it physically visible and tangible, and you can actually have someone that comes into that space and visits that network. So you can share your mental model with anyone that you want: it can be a therapist, it can be a guide, it can be a shaman, it can be a well-being specialist, it can be your partner, it can be your parent, it can be your child. It can be anyone that you wish had a better understanding of you, but they don’t. It’s hard to understand ourselves, [much less] understand each other based on those linear narratives. But if we actually see how people connect things [and] how they see those links, I feel like we have a much better chance to actually connect to each other and have a better understanding of consciousness.” -Agnieszka
“So much of the focus in psychedelic therapy has been on the dosing session, whereas a lot of us would like to think that it really should be on the psychotherapy, and the psychedelic is purely that stimulus that ignites the insights which you then take through psychotherapy. If that stimulus can be the stimulus which ignites a process of psychotherapy, and therefore the power of psychotherapy to produce change, and in that way, brings psychotherapy further to the forefront of mental health treatment (in a way, it’s completely disappeared and been replaced by biological methods), then I think we have won – just by that.” -Prash
“We can induce a similar psycho-emotional state with the use of VR during the integration sessions to help patients remember, at their psychological and at an emotional level, what the experience has been like. …A lot of studies (especially earlier studies) would report that within the first two weeks after the psychedelic experience [is] the most potent time for integration because patients are still in that emotional state that was evoked with psychedelics. So maintaining that for longer by repeat application of VR might give us more access to those emotions, and might enable patients to process things a little bit more deeply.” -Agnieszka
In this episode of Psychedelics Weekly, Kyle and David meet up to talk news, but end up mostly having a discussion about the numerous challenges facing the rapidly growing industry of psychedelic therapists, guides, and facilitators.
That discussion comes from the article, “Psychedelic workers of the world, unite!”, which breaks down the shortcomings and risks of an industry many are flocking to without realizing what they’ll likely have to deal with: unprecedented legal and financial risks, burnout, misalignment with management, transference and countertransference, and what happens when one finds themselves in the middle of a genuine emergency? While these issues could be found in any industry, a big reason why they seem so prevalent and dangerous in the psychedelic world is our lack of elders and passed-down experience – and the faster this all grows, the more we need that guidance.
And for news, they talk about Ohio State making history as the first U.S. University to receive a license to grow psilocybin mushrooms; a new study showing that LSD enhanced learning, exploratory thinking, and sensitivity to feedback; and the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) funding $1.5 million to research the efficacy of psychedelics for substance use disorder – which spurs a conversation about research, funding, and the idea that maybe we’re spending too much time and money on neuroscience.
In this episode, Joe interviews Priyanka Wali, MD: board-certified practicing physician in Internal Medicine, MAPS-trained psychedelic facilitator, comedian, and co-host (with Sean Hayes of “Will & Grace” fame) of the HypochondriActor podcast, where they discuss interesting medical issues in a funny (and hopefully uplifting) way.
She talks about recognizing and protecting the humanity of healthcare professionals, and how medical school is creating a cycle of hurt people trying to help other hurt people. She believes we need to become more holistic, especially in embracing Indigenous ways of thinking, as their frameworks may be the only way to explain phenomena with which Western science can’t yet come to terms.
They talk a lot about ancient psychedelic use: the use of a soma described in the Rigveda; Egyptian culture and mushrooms observed in statues; Plato; the work of Brian Muraresku and Graham Hancock; and Vedic chants, Kashmiri Bhajans, and how singing (especially in a group) can be especially healing to the nervous system. And as Wali experienced first-hand the Kashmiri Pandit genocide of 1990, she discusses how much colonialism has changed cultures, and how much our cycles of oppression relate to our collective inability to experience pain and fear.
They discuss the psychological impact of living through major catastrophes; the special and hard-to-describe feeling of returning to your home (especially in a world changed by colonization and constant conflict); the sad case of Ignaz Semmelweis and hand washing; ghosts of Japan’s 2011 tsunami, the concept of ‘future primitive,’ and more.
Notable Quotes
“We’re only thinking about it from a certain perspective. And this is where you think about principles of colonization come in: looking at things only from one perspective. If you start to bring in Indigenous systems [and] Indigenous ways of looking at data, then suddenly, we do actually have ways to account for these other phenomenon that can’t be objectively tabulated.”
“In traditional Kashmiri culture, it was routine to gather together and sing together. We humans: we’re supposed to gather around the fire and dance and chant. There’s actually something very healing for our bodies. And let’s not forget how our nervous systems regulate with each other, so being physically together as a group, as a collective, singing, using our bodies: it’s actually very healing for the nervous system. We need more of that.”
“I think the next shift in consciousness is recognizing that we experience fear as part of the human experience, but we can choose not to give into it. We can be with it, we can allow it to be there, we can even honor it, but we don’t have to act on it. And we can, instead, choose the path of peace or love, or not even choose those paths, but just choose not to do anything with the fear; choose not to oppress someone, judge someone, lash it out, [or] numb it. …Unless we, in the present day, begin to start being with our fear, we will continue to perpetuate these cycles of oppression.”
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In this episode of Psychedelics Weekly, Joe and Kyle are both on the road, so David and Alexa take the helm.
They cover news stories about:
-a man in Colorado facing a Class 3 drug felony for giving people psilocybin mushrooms in exchange for monetary donations – pointing out the bold (or stupid?) stances some are taking to highlight the absurdity of legislation that allows possession and donation as long as no money changes hands;
-a study showing what many of us have felt ourselves: that the day after psilocybin-assisted therapy, depressed patients had a stronger brain response to music and saw improvements in the ability to find pleasure in previously empty activities;
-a trip report from a psychedelically-naive 50-year old, showing the power and beauty of MDMA-assisted therapy;
-the New Hampshire state Senate continuing to be behind the times and voting down House Bill 639, which would have created a legal recreational cannabis framework for the state;
-a video where people on the street in Oregon were asked how much they thought psilocybin therapy would cost, showing a drastic misalignment between public perception and reality;
and a local TV news feature touring Rose City Laboratories, the first licensed psilocybin testing lab in Oregon.
And in conversation, they talk about some of the lesser-discussed (and often dismissed) tools like CBD, THC patches, and very low-dose edibles; the problem with drug dealers and harm reduction; the power of music in guiding a psychedelic experience (and in living a pleasurable life); and the importance of dosing and listening to your body to know what’s right for you.
In this episode, Joe interviews Nick Kadysh: Founder and CEO of PharmAla Biotech and member of the board of directors for The Canadian Psychedelic Businesses Association.
PharmAla Biotech is a Toronto-based Life Sciences company with two focuses: contracting with manufacturers to provide researchers with GMP MDMA (created under Good Manufacturing Practice regulations), and creating and researching novel analogs of MDMA. And just today, they announced that Health Canada has authorized them (and their distribution partner, Shaman Pharma) to supply their LaNeo™ MDMA for the treatment of a patient under Canada’s Special Access Program – the first time this has happened in Canada.
He discusses the creation of PharmAla and why their model changed from primarily researching analogs to manufacturing; why they’re operating out of Canada and using manufacturers instead of running the lab themselves; the excitement around Australia’s recent about-face on MDMA and psilocybin-assisted therapy; the bureaucracy of U.S. drug policy and how much a broken supply chain affects the whole industry; bad IP and companies filing rapid fire patents; why creating new analogs of MDMA is so important; and why the psychedelic space needs to bring culture along with us.
He also talks about Spravato, cannabis and risks of cancer, THC nasal sprays, and research he’s most excited about: that MDMA seems to alleviate dyskinesia caused from Parkinson’s disease, and that MDMA could improve social anxiety in people with autism. He’s aiming to run a clinical trial and believes they have developed a safe MDMA analog that the autistic community will respond to very well.
Notable Quotes
“I don’t want to give the impression that we think that MDMA is unsafe. In the case of PTSD-assisted psychotherapy the way that it’s being presented by MAPS, I think it’s remarkably safe. But, you know, better is still possible.”
“If you told me that you have a brand new drug that was developed in a lab that nobody has ever seen or tried or tested before, and let’s call it drug A. And then you have drug B, which is derived from a mushroom, that people have been consuming regularly for the past 5,000 years and no one’s died. And you’re asking me which one is safer? It’s the mushroom, man. It’s not even a question.”
“We owe it to ourselves in this industry to take the population along for the ride. This is why I think safety is so important, because if you’re working on safety, people like that. People trust that. That’s what happened last time: there was the counterculture and the culture, and the culture won, and we’re still paying for it today. So let’s bring the culture along.”
In this episode of Psychedelics Weekly, Joe and temporary-Colorado-resident Kyle once again record in-person, discussing how psychedelics could change business, the drug war and safe supply, and more.
They cover:
-a Rolling Stone profile on David Bronner, who makes the case for multi-stakeholder capitalism; where businesses are accountable to their workers, customers, the environment, and surrounding Indigenous communities instead of just investors – an idea more people would likely align with after a psychedelic experience;
-The first psilocybin service center in Oregon (EPIC Healing Eugene) finally receiving their license via the Oregon Health Authority;
-A man who saw his color blindness improve for four months after a 5g mushroom experience;
-The opening of ‘The Drugs Store’ in Vancouver, British Columbia: a mobile store selling drugs illegally as a response to the opioid epidemic and constant influx of untested and laced drugs – the “inevitable result of the government doing nothing” towards offering a safe supply;
-and a survey from the CDC showing that cannabis use among teenagers has declined since legal dispensaries began opening, disproving one of the most common prohibitionist arguments that legalization would only increase use.
And of course, these topics bring on a lot of conversation: how businesses need to be more reflective on how they’re operating; concern over if too much regulation is nerfing the world; the human cost of the drug war and the ever-escalating amount of ODs and drug poisoning cases; HPPD and the need for research around psychedelics and vision/perception; why we will always need both clinical access and the recreational underground, and more.
In this episode, Joe interviews Erica Rex: award-winning journalist, past guest and writer, and participant in one of the first ever clinical trials using psilocybin to treat cancer-related depression; and Mona Sobhani, Ph.D.: cognitive neuroscientist and the author of Proof of Spiritual Phenomena: A Neuroscientist’s Discovery of the Ineffable Mysteries of the Universe.
As Rex discovered the power of psychedelics through a clinical trial, she discusses a huge problem she discovered: that researchers are not preparing participants enough for the ontological shock they may go through in trying to match unexplainable happenings to a rigid framework (or match the normal to a framework that has suddenly shifted) – that while patients have support at the clinic, it all disappears when they return to normal life. She believes that all too often, researchers are doing only what is necessary to be able to continue to receive funding, push drugs through the FDA, and prescribe a pill.
And as psychedelics changed Sobhani from very constrained scientific thinking to being very open to new ideas about consciousness and spirituality, she learned that many scientists had similar stories, and that coming out of the psychedelic closet is sometimes the best thing to do to normalize these ways of healing.
They discuss the challenges of newcomers trying to explain their experience without having the necessary language; how we still don’t truly understand mental illness; how the DSM just clusters symptoms to fit ‘disorders’ into a box; how society has started pathologizing anything we find unpleasant (which of course, is a part of being human); Gary Fisher’s research on using LSD and psilocybin for schizophrenic children, why science needs to combine consciousness research and psychedelics research, and more.
Notable Quotes
“I think most people (neuroscientists, a lot of psychologists): we don’t like labels. We don’t like the DSM (especially neuroscientists). It doesn’t make any sense; all you’re doing is clustering symptoms and calling it a disorder. It’s useful, but it’s not explanatory. …Everyone’s so focused on ‘What are the brain mechanisms?’ but we do need to pull out and [ask]: ‘What are the societal mechanisms? How is our society not supporting [us]? Why do we see such an increase in some of these disorders? It’s a really big question.” -Mona
“There was a big move to get grief made into a pathology that was defined in the DSM so it could be treated with a pill. Grief. This was during COVID. So now grief is a pathology and you can be diagnosed with ‘grieving disorder’ and treated for it. …Anything that does not serve the machine is now considered a disease and disorder and has to be fixed, which is unfortunate because it takes us away from every piece of authentic experience that we could ever possibly have. And that is dehumanizing, profoundly.” -Erica
“Our whole society’s not built around humanity, even though we talk a lot about humanity. But there’s no humane principles in business or in society. Nothing is built around what the human needs, and that’s why, even in psychiatry, you see [that] grief or these normal human needs are pathologized. …We’re just cutting off parts of ourselves and not catering to being a human because we hate being human so much, apparently. We hate the things that are inconvenient about it, that it’s like we just have to cut it off and block it off and go forward. But you can’t do that; then you have all these coping mechanisms that emerge and then all these disorders, because you’re not functioning in an environment that supports you being what you are.” -Mona
In this episode of Psychedelics Weekly, Joe and Kyle record in-person again, discussing psychedelics and parenthood, sports, music, and more.
They cover:
-an Elle (!) article about how mushrooms are becoming the new ‘Cali sober,’ with more and more people starting to microdose – including parents;
-ESPN’s documentary, “Peace of Mind,” highlighting the rise of psychedelic use among athletes, including retired NHL player, Riley Cote;
-An article discussing how interest in psychedelics has skyrocketed in Oregon since the passing of Measure 109, and how over-regulation and the glacial speed of the government is only driving the growth of the black market;
-An essay attempting to define what it is that leads people to describe music as psychedelic (with several recommendations from Joe);
-DMT aficionados using AI to create and catalog depictions of the entities they’ve seen;
and more!
And they have larger discussions about the drug war, how famous athletes are opening people’s minds to psychedelics, how strict regulation in psychedelic legislation can create more harm, how we need to collaborate more in the psychedelic space, the concept of a DMT ‘hyper-slap,’ and the problem of psychedelic exceptionalism and thinking your drug is good while others are bad.
In this episode, David interviews two of the founding members of Fireside Project: activist, healing justice practitioner, musician, and Chief Ambassador, Hanifa Nayo Washington; and lawyer, aspiring researcher, and Executive Director, Joshua White, Esq.
Fireside Project was created after White volunteered for a help line for years and realized a few things: that follow-up calls made a big difference; that the state of mental health in the U.S. was a disaster (he was talking to some of the same people for years); and that while psychedelics were becoming popular, they would likely only be accessible to the wealthy. Alongside Washington, they realized the most effective thing they could do would be creating a free help line where people could call for peer support during a psychedelic experience, and receive support in integrating that experience afterward. They’ve focused on finding volunteers who may be marginalized or who have been persecuted from the war on drugs, but most importantly, have real experience and true compassion (rather than letters after their name proving their credentials). They are on track to receive 10,000 calls over their first two years.
They discuss Fireside’s Burning Man origin story; the serendipity they’ve seen in the organization’s beginnings and so many calls; where the name came from; how they prepare volunteers; what true equity looks like; and how, while it’s a common challenge for therapists and facilitators to hold back and not try to fix a problem, that may be even more important here.
Fireside Project takes calls every day from 11am – 11pm PST, and while there is an app you can download, they recommend saving their number in your phone for when you need it (62-FIRESIDE). And to destroy the notion of being afraid to ask for help, they encourage everyone to share their stories on social media: the times that you’ve used Fireside Project or the times you had a challenging experience and wish you had known about them. Many newcomers have no idea this support exists, and it could truly be life-changing for them.
Notable Quotes
“What’s revolutionary about what we’re doing in this idea of democratizing care is that these are volunteers, and they come as peers. They come to the experiences having had their own experiences, and desiring to hold space for others as they navigate their experiences and navigate their processing afterwards. …They’re not doing therapy. They’re not diagnosing. They’re really with the person (the caller, the texter) as somebody who gets it.” -Hanifa
“I think some of the most powerful moments on the line come when we say absolutely nothing at all, when we just allow the silence to become almost palpable, to really feel that ember. I think silence has led to so many of the most beautiful moments that I’ve been lucky enough to see on the line.” -Josh
“By being able to create a safe and non-judgmental space for people by phone, then yes, that absolutely can reduce the risks of their psychedelic experiences. And I think there’s kind of a yin and yang here, which is that when a person is in a space of non-judgment, and when they do feel deeply seen and heard and listened to, then that not only reduces the risks, but it also allows someone to really turn towards their psychedelic experience and to unwrap the gift that’s before them.” -Josh
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