Kyle Buller: [00:00:00] All right. Hello. Welcome everybody. I’m excited to be here with Dr. Esme Dark. Um, we had a few conversations around collaborating on this podcast. You have your own podcast, um, beyond the trip, and we thought it would be fun to just collaborate on this live stream, this live podcast, and I think start talking about policy, around Australia, also the us.

Kyle Buller: I always find it fascinating that it feels like Australia beat us to the, the legal framework. So Dr. Dark, can you just introduce yourself to everybody?

Esme Dark: Thanks Kyle. I’m Dr. Esme Dark. I’m a clinical psychologist and a somatic psychotherapist, and I’ve worked as a psychedelic therapist on research trials here at the clinical psychedelic lab at Monash University and on some [00:01:00] clinical projects.

Esme Dark: And so, yeah, I’m kind of really excited to be here today. I’ve been, I’ve followed psychedelics today for a long time. It was such a, I really wanted to start, uh, beyond the trip podcast to kind of highlight, I guess, what’s going on here in Australia with the, as we rolled out the regulations. Um, and I was listening to one of your podcasts, Kyle, where you talked about one of the reasons for psychedelics today, um, being about, one of the reasons for starting it was to kind of highlight some of the depths.

Esme Dark: Lens.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: Depth psychology lens. And one of my reasons for starting beyond the trip was to highlight the importance of psychotherapy. And so I thought, I’m gonna contact Kyle and see, see whether he would like to collaborate. And here we are.

Kyle Buller: I love it. I love it. Yeah. Joe and I really kind of wanted to highlight a lot of the breath work, transpersonal and depth oriented work.

Kyle Buller: ’cause that’s kind of been at the, the basis of our work. So I always love chatting and collaborating with other somatic depth oriented practitioners. I think it’s important. Um, [00:02:00] and sometimes not always talked about, especially probably from the clinical perspective there that you’re doing in, in the research.

Kyle Buller: Um, so maybe we could start off there, like what has been going on in Australia, uh, in regards to psychedelics?

Esme Dark: Yeah. So it’s a really interesting time to be working in psychedelics in Australia. I was, um, I started working at the clinical psychedelic lab. Gosh, it must be sort of four years ago now. Um, I was working on a trial looking at psilocybin assisted psychotherapy for generalized anxiety disorder.

Esme Dark: It was one of the biggest ones and one of the sort of starting ones, there was one trial before this with Dr. Mar Ross and her team looking at psilocybin assisted therapy for end of life care. But we were kind of, it was, felt like the, the space was just really getting going in terms of the research. Um, and then partway through we found out that, um, they were rescheduling these medicines.

Esme Dark: Um, and there’s a lot of myths around what’s actually happening in [00:03:00] Australia. So it’s really good to. To kind of talk about it a little bit here. Um, so what’s happened is it’s not decrim, so a lot of people think that to start with. So just to say that’s definitely not what’s happened. Um, they’ve basically taken psilocybin assisted psychotherapy and MDMA assisted psychotherapy, and they’ve rescheduled these medicines for use under the authorized prescriber scheme.

Esme Dark: So what that means is that, um, if you, you are a psychiatrist, you can apply to, uh, a human research ethics board for an authorized prescriber license to prescribe these medicines alongside psychotherapy. So one of the great things, um, about the model here is that they’ve really gone for this authorized prescriber model, but alongside the psychotherapy.

Esme Dark: So it’s very, the, uh, protocols that are being rolled out are very similar to those in, say the maps trials or in our trial where there’s like a dyad, we’re doing the prep dosing [00:04:00] integration. Um, so these medicines are able to be used but only under the authorized prescriber, like from a psychiatrist perspective.

Esme Dark: And a psychologist can be involved in the therapy and a psychotherapist can be involved in the therapy. And the rules are different between each human research ethics board. So I can’t get into the, too much of the, um. With weeds about that? ’cause it depends on, on who’s, yeah.

Kyle Buller: And is psychiatrist, is the psychiatrist prescribing and them being there or are they prescribing, administer and then leaving?

Esme Dark: So, that’s a good question, Kyle. Like, it, it depends. So they have to be, they’re clinically responsible, so very often they’re a part of the, so it’s done in a dyad model, like in the maps, um, protocols. And so there’s always two therapists usually in, in the, in, in the way that I’ve done it, both on the trials and um, in the clinical spaces that I’m aware of.

Esme Dark: And one of those might be the psychiatrists. Sometimes it isn’t. Sometimes it might be to [00:05:00] psychologists or to a psychologist and a psychotherapist. Um, those rules are different in different areas, different states as well. In Australia, we don’t have quite the same. Like difference between states as they do in the us.

Esme Dark: Um, but there are some differences as well. So I’m in Victoria, which is, um, in, in Melbourne. I live in Melbourne, so.

Kyle Buller: Awesome. Yeah. And I think I remember this past around February, 2022 or 2021. I forget ’cause I remember I was at a conference called Can Deic and I remember hearing the news while I was there.

Kyle Buller: Um, what has the rollout been like? So it seems like it probably took a while to get going. Um, and I’m not too sure if you can talk about like, what, what ha has that rollout been, has there been any kind of like constrictions roadblocks as it started to roll out?

Esme Dark: Yeah, so it’s been the slower rollout. So initially, um, when it was announced, I think it was around that time, we were kind of in the middle of the, the trial and we had a meeting about it.[00:06:00]

Esme Dark: And it initially, it sounded like they were going to be doing it quite quickly, but in fact, what’s happened because of the regulations around it. Um, so, so people, it’s, it’s actually treatment resistant depression and treatment resistant PTSD. Mm-hmm. Um, so people have to fit lots of different criteria and they have to be assessed by the psychiatrist to see if they can fit those criteria to, to be, um, to be worked, to have these medicines.

Esme Dark: So, so yeah. I think it, it has been slower than anticipated, which I think is a good thing, you know, because in many ways Australia kind of, yeah, we beat the stick in in some ways, right? Yeah. And, and, but actually we, we, it’s, it’s something that requires potentially a real shift in. A real shift in how we seek healing, a real shift in focus of how we treat people.

Esme Dark: And so I think it’s good that it’s been a slower rollout because there’s, you know, psychedelic as, as you well know, psychedelic [00:07:00] therapy is about healing and working with whatever’s underneath the symptoms, not symptom management. And it’s a whole different process to what is usually the diagnostic medical model where people are kind of, you know, reducing symptoms and attached to particular diagnostic labels.

Esme Dark: And actually, I feel like these medicines and this work really invites us to go a lot deeper than that. And

Kyle Buller: so

Esme Dark: I feel like there’s a real education piece in our community around that. And so I’m glad it was slower for that reason. Um, and it’s also one of the reasons I started the podcast.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle Buller: You know, I think like we’ve all been really eager for psychedelics to like get legalized in whatever framework or decriminalized, but you know, as things start to roll out, you start seeing a lot of these like road bumps along the way. And I think. Taking our time with that can also be really important, right?

Kyle Buller: Because these are really profound experiences for folks. And thinking about like what guardrails are are in place, what is the accessibility [00:08:00] like, um, for, you know, ’cause the medical model is expensive. I think that’s why a lot of us here United States have also been like, you know, let’s look at some other models.

Kyle Buller: And that’s what we’ve seen rollout, um, here in the States. Yeah. So what has it been like for accessibility for folks that are trying to get treatment? Like, how expensive is it? Does insurance cover it? Is it all outta pocket?

Esme Dark: Yeah. Um, it is one of the key things that we are all. Concerned about and working on is the cost.

Esme Dark: It is expensive at the moment. So currently, um, and this is, I mean, actually changing all the time, so just to, to say at the moment, um, the, it’s probably it’s not covered by too many insurance companies or some parts of the sessions may be covered by Medicare. So in Australia we have something called Medicare, which is, um, the, like for me as a psychologist, for example, um, people can get a Medicare rebate.[00:09:00]

Esme Dark: Part of this also, people come to see me and they, they can get those reduced fees. So some of that system is, is possible to use, um, with some of the therapy. But, um, it’s still really expensive. You know, it can be 25,000, $30,000 for a course of treatment. We are really, it’s really, you know, because, um, but we are really working really hard to, um, bring insurance companies on board and the veteran affairs organizations as well.

Esme Dark: So there’s a lot happening in that space, and it’s changing all the time. Um, we are really talking a lot about improving access because, you know, that’s prohibitive for so many people and we are really concerned about that in the space. Um, it’s, you know, the model that, that we are working with is, is, you know, is there the same model that’s using clinical trials?

Esme Dark: It’s the one where the research evidence. Comes from. And so it’s really important, I think, to stay true to that best practice, but also how do we do this in a way that means that other people couldn’t afford it? You know? [00:10:00] Um, I think what that will mean, um, is the government coming on board more, um, and also some of the insurance companies.

Esme Dark: And then there’s, there’s a lot happening in that space. I’m not an expert on all of that. If you had my colleague Monica from the psychedelic consultancy here, she would be able to speak to a lot of this, um, in detail. But, um, there’s a lot of people working hard behind the scenes to improve access. Um, yeah.

Kyle Buller: That’s good to hear. Do you feel that, like, I’ve heard like maybe drug policy in Australia’s a little bit more conservative, but like would, do you see them moving towards like a decrim model or like a service center model that’s outside the, the medical model there? Or do you feel like that might be like way down the line?

Esme Dark: I don’t know. You know, Australia surprises me. I’m originally from the uk. Um, I’ve been here maybe 12 years. I think. Um, I, I, there’s lots of people that would love to see that happen, or at least to see the restrictions shifted into a way [00:11:00] that means it’s more affordable. Um. It’s so hard to say. You know, generally Australia is, um, more, I think, uh, conservative in their drug policy.

Esme Dark: So it feels like that might not not be on the cards. It’s not, you know, tell, tell me about America, like what’s happening in the us I know it’s different state to state when you probably have different reflections, but how is it all going over there?

Kyle Buller: Yeah, you know, it really started with, um, Denver decriminalizing psilocybin just in the city limits there, um, back in 2019.

Kyle Buller: Um, and then Oregon followed after that and legalized, um, psilocybin within, uh, a healing service center model. So that was outside of like the scope of, um, you know, this more medical model and people without a diagnosis could then go receive services. And then we’ve seen, um, these smaller city ordinances pass through the decriminalized nature movements.

Kyle Buller: So we have number of, uh, towns and cities throughout the US that have [00:12:00] passed these local resolutions, um, to decriminalize it. So it takes away, you know, possible criminal charges for possession, gifting, et cetera. Um, theoretically, right, like it could, you know, state. Could always come in, feds could always come in.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Since they, these are just like local, uh, resolutions. It just means like, you know, it should be the lowest priority for police enforcement. Um. Then we had Prop 1 22 pass here in Colorado, which, um, legalized psilocybin within or legalized natural medicine. Well, hold on. Um, there’s two bills there.

Kyle Buller: Decriminalized natural medicines. So it allowed folks to grow gifts, consume natural medicines, um, mushrooms, cacti. Masculine, uh, containing cacti that isn’t peyote, DMT, um, et cetera. Um, ibogaine isn’t on that decrim list in a way. Um, there’s some kind of restrictions around it. Um, and then they have the [00:13:00] legal, uh, framework there as well where people can go to a service center and that they’re mainly focusing on psilocybin in the, in the healing centers.

Kyle Buller: Um, and it sounds like they’re gonna be expanding in, into ibogaine treatment as well. There was just a conference that happened over in Aspen a few weeks ago. Uh, Joe just did a podcast, wrote an article about some of the recap that happened there. But it is a, a discussion around, you know, can they get iboga, uh, treatments, um, up and running after they really get like the psilocybin, um, structure in place.

Kyle Buller: Um. And then we’re seeing other, uh, states too, like New Mexico just passed, um, a legalization bill that’s more kind of like in a medical model. Mm-hmm. Um, New Jersey just is trying to advance a bill around. There’s a little bit, it sounded like there was a little bit of confusion, um, on the internet around what Bill actually got was advanced.

Kyle Buller: Um, it’s not completely passed. It still has to, uh, you know, go through a few more steps. But, [00:14:00] um, new Jersey’s trying to create like a pilot program, um, to see. Um, you know, how this could get rolled out and I think they would incorporate that they’re allocating like $6 million and I think it’s just towards like getting it started in hospitals first.

Kyle Buller: Um, and so we’re seeing policy across the board from decrim to the medical model, um, that are rolling out here. Um, and we’ll see on the federal level, you know, that is something that just still lags behind is federal rescheduling and stuff like that. Um, I did see an article recently that the DEA has been, um, trying to like up production around, um, psychedelics for clinical trials.

Kyle Buller: ’cause they would typically like restrict how much could get produced in a year for, for that. So it sounds like, you know, more clinical trials, more research, um, is on the way, but you never know. It’s always, uh, up and down. We could see like an example with, uh, Oregon for, uh, when they passed, uh, their decriminalized, [00:15:00] uh, bill, I was confused.

Kyle Buller: Measure 1 0 9, measure one 10. Um, I think it’s, yeah, it’s

Esme Dark: complicated.

Kyle Buller: Um, but they, they, they, they passed a decriminalization bill with the legalization bill and they’ve rolled back on that. So in that bill, it actually decriminalized like a lot of different substances, not just psychedelics. And since mushrooms and psychedelics were also wrapped up in that when they reversed it, it actually criminalized, um, psychedelics outside of say the service center model.

Kyle Buller: Um, so yeah, there’s been a lot of stuff happening. Um, and it just seems to be kind of like, you know, compounding, which is exciting. Um, that, you know, I never thought it would be happening this quick when I first started getting more involved in psychedelics. So it’s cool to see policy does change, um, over time.

Esme Dark: Yeah. Is my wifi Okay, Kyle, I, I can just, um, change to something else.

Kyle Buller: [00:16:00] Yeah. Maybe. It looks like it’s a little fragmented. Yeah. So maybe if you, do you want to switch over to something else? Yeah,

Esme Dark: I’ll try. Yeah. Yeah. The joys of the Australian internet. Just gimme one second.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Kyle Buller: All right. So everybody that is tuning in, we’ll just. Do a little pause here while we get the wifi figured out. There’s also been some, I guess, intense solar storms that have been rolling through. Um, I think there’s a, a big solar flare that happened on Tuesday or Monday, and so they’ve been kind of predicting there might be some like weirdness with wifi and electronics.

Esme Dark: Oh, there you go. Yeah, it’s, um, so it’s, mine can be up and down. So I’m back now I think. Is that all good? Oh,

Kyle Buller: you are? Yep.

Esme Dark: Awesome. Um, yes. Wow. I mean, I, I find, I still find it fascinating how different the federal and state legislations are in, in the [00:17:00] US and how must be quite complex, you know? Um, my colleagues and, and friends Bruce and Marsela from Maps, they’ve been sort of trying to get their center off the ground.

Esme Dark: Um, and it just, you know, it feels like there’s just a lot of complexity for all of us, but also really exciting. I agree. I never thought that we would be where we are in Australia. I just had no, it was a surprise to a lot of us. Um, I

Kyle Buller: think so, because I remember the policy was trying to move forward with Mind Medicine in Australia, and then it seemed to get blocked, and then I remember just all of a sudden it was like, the news broke.

Kyle Buller: And you’re like, what? Just, what just happened there? Like,

Esme Dark: yeah. And you know, I am. I think one of the things that, um, you know, in terms of the work here that I would really like to see and advocate for is, is looking at, um, because at the moment the, uh, access to people with treatment resistant depression with psilocybin assisted psychotherapy, and people with PTSD who’ve tried some other [00:18:00] treatments for MDMA assisted psychotherapy, but I would really like to see end of Life Care really looked at.

Esme Dark: Yeah, there’s a lot of people advocating for that. I’ve got a podcast series coming up next year about that because there’s actually a lot of research for that population too that, and you know, I think almost all of us will unfortunately know someone in our lives who is touched by cancer and probably who has passed away from cancer if you look at the rates.

Esme Dark: Um, so I really would like to see that use expand in those populations.

Kyle Buller: Same and just being able to have access to it. Um, I always remember something, um, one of our past, uh, guest, uh, Dr. McLean from she at Hopkins working on these, you know, it was like, we don’t know when we’re gonna die. Right? And there’s this idea that like, if we have these transitory tools that help us to confront death and life, like shouldn’t we just [00:19:00] naturally have access to some of this stuff so we can confront that?

Kyle Buller: And I always come back to a quote that I learned during, um, a course I took on death and dying. It’s, you know, how we live our life is how we prepare for death and how we prepare for death is how we live our life. Mm-hmm. And so like if we’re able to like, confront that, does that shift the way that we approach stuff?

Kyle Buller: Right. And if somebody is, um, confronted and is diagnosed with terminal illness, like should they have a human right? To be able to like, you know, ease some of that suffering and anxiety. And you kind of see a bit of the hiccups up in Canada where they have the special access program and sometimes I hear that people have a hard time actually getting access and approval for that, even though they do have terminal illness and, um, mm-hmm.

Kyle Buller: So, yeah, I agree. I wish that that would also expand as well.

Esme Dark: Hmm. Yeah, I feel like it’s something that I work with so much in my private practice. You know, I’ve put a private practice, I do psychotherapy individually [00:20:00] with people and, um, one of the things that is such a common thing is fear of death. So the kind of, the existential fear of death, not the kind of, even if someone is not sick, but they, maybe they, when you get underneath the anxiety or whatever is presenting, it’s that.

Esme Dark: And so often it’s about. A lot of things, but one of the things it can be about is a life not lived in the way that they wanna be living it. You know? Do you know the book Staring at the Sun by Irving Yulong?

Kyle Buller: I don’t think so, no.

Esme Dark: Oh, he, it’s a beautiful book about, um, death anxiety and his own death anxiety and, um, yeah, it’s really great.

Esme Dark: And it talks a lot about these different ways in which you can support people with that and kind of, um, he’s very like self-disclosing in that book. He’s an amazing, uh, God, he must be getting quite, quite a lot older now, but existential psychotherapist, who’s a whole bunch of books that I love. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Nice.

Kyle Buller: And how did he approach that [00:21:00] topic of like, did he have his own experiences with death or like psychedelics or.

Esme Dark: Death, fear of death. Yeah. I think he, um, he lived with this kind of death anxiety that his whole life that he realized was affecting how he was in the world. Um, and so he started to reflect on what would be important for him.

Esme Dark: And he talked about like, you know, I guess he’s very self-disclosing about writing books as kind of putting some of himself in the world so that he can

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: Continue to ripple out. And I guess we all ripple out in, through the people that we love, um, the way that we are in the world and the people that we care for.

Esme Dark: Um, we leave a little piece of ourselves with them, don’t we?

Kyle Buller: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And like. I mean, something like that just reminds me of like, you know, when you are on your deathbed, like, are you gonna regret not doing things right? And so it, it goes back to that, that thing, it’s like how we prepare for death is how we live, live our lives, right?

Kyle Buller: Yes. It’s like, we’re not thinking about that. Are we really consciously showing up [00:22:00] for the life that we really wanna live?

Esme Dark: Yes. Yes. This is a great topic. I could keep, keep going on this. You know, I feel, um. I feel like I’m, the reason that I ended up making this huge life change to move to Australia is partly to do with my first job as a psychologist, which is in bereavement counseling.

Esme Dark: Mm-hmm. And, and I think there’s something about being that close to people who have recently had someone in their lives die that makes you really think about those big questions, you know?

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: Um, yeah.

Kyle Buller: It’s hard not to, you know? Yeah. I think it puts it right in your face and you go, Hmm. Yeah. I think the hard part is like actually integrating it, right?

Kyle Buller: It’s like we can have a lot of those insights and then, you know, we’re back to the 3D um, back in the grind and, you know, I think that’s, that’s the tension point for a lot of folks. Totally. Um, how, how did you get involved in, in the psychedelic work?

Esme Dark: Hmm, great question. So I, um, I was working as a psychologist in, um, refugee [00:23:00] mental health, actually for quite a lot of years, um, in, um, torture and trauma counseling.

Esme Dark: Mm-hmm. And, and so, um, I could say a lot about that, but one of the, I guess the pathway to here was that I was, I think you have to live slightly under a rock to not know about, um, to be working that much with PTSD and not hear about maps and what they were doing. And so I learned about what MAPS was doing and MDMA assisted psychotherapy and having really good impacts with PTSD.

Esme Dark: And so that was kind of my, my, my doorway into this work. And then. During, uh, COVID, I decided we had a really long lockdown here, and I got in touch with an old friend who, who I saw was doing that work. So she was on, well, ended up not have the trial ended up being delayed, but she was starting to work on the MDMA assisted psychotherapy trial at Monash Uni with the first responders.

Esme Dark: And I said, oh, I’m really interested in that [00:24:00] work. And she said, why don’t you come and work with us? I think you’ve got the right background being a somatic psychotherapist who’s also really interested in depth psychology. Would you like to come on over? And so that’s where, that’s where I began, and it’s been an amazing adventure working at the clinical psychedelic lab with a great team of really like-minded, um, therapists.

Esme Dark: And, um, Dr. Paul Ignite Ski who heads up the lab is, is a really, uh, great, great person to work alongside and been lots of cool projects happening there.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, amazing. What’s your journey been like with like training and providing psychedelic therapy? Like, you know, as a traditional therapist, a somatic therapist, like what did you have to learn?

Kyle Buller: What’d you have to unlearn to start really working with these medicines?

Esme Dark: Yeah, I was just thinking about this yesterday in preparing a bit for this call, and I’ve been, I’ve actually been teaching, um, on the psychedelic education program at Monash as well. So this has been like a real live question for me.[00:25:00]

Esme Dark: Mm. Um, what do I want to sort of teach other people? What did I need to learn? And I feel like, um, when I was been working with, say with the, I worked for about two years on the Psilocybin Assisted Psychotherapy trial, so we were working with people with generalized anxiety disorder in a. Dyad therapy model.

Esme Dark: Um, and so I think one of the things that I found really important is if I, if I think about dose days in particular and somatic approaches, you know, learning how to really track someone’s body

Kyle Buller: Hmm.

Esme Dark: Really, really support them to have things that kind of move through, but also learning how to, to get out of the way as well.

Kyle Buller: Yeah,

Esme Dark: yeah. And just let happen what is happening in the space and that kind of balance of like actually, um, when someone is in a dose day, most of the time. Myself and my co-therapist are really just kind of holding the space, being alongside really supporting them. But sometimes we’re not, sometimes we’re doing, [00:26:00] we’re doing stuff.

Esme Dark: Um, and I was thinking the other day, I, you know, um, was supporting somebody to move a somatic process through their body, but I was kind of doing it even the other recently, you know, from a place of something that I thought should happen.

Kyle Buller: Mm.

Esme Dark: You know, and, and actually when I reflected with my co-therapist, I think it was a bit confusing and a bit too much for them.

Esme Dark: Like I was getting ’em to do a push, um, which can be really helpful. It is really helpful. I knew this person really well, worked with them for many, many sessions. Um, but in that moment, on the dose day, it was me thinking, trying to be a good somatic therapist. And actually what, what I find so much better is, um, just really amplifying what’s going on already and not bringing something in, which sounds like you’re not doing a lot, but you’re actually doing a lot when you are.

Esme Dark: Mm-hmm. Learning how to amplify and track someone’s body

Kyle Buller: and how do you get outta your own way in those situations? [00:27:00] Great. Yeah, that’s

Esme Dark: a great question. I think, um, you know, meditation practice and grounding and coming into my own body has been really helpful in general as I’ve been practicing meditation for a long time and yoga and those practices like really help me to get in my own body.

Esme Dark: Um, and so then I’m just kind of in my body watching the other person move through whatever they are moving through. And I think how you get out of your own ways also, it’s a great having a code therapist. If I’m thinking I might go check in, I might do a thing now. Um, what are you feeling? Um, and, and I think it’s really important to have really good supervision.

Esme Dark: So if you really know yourself and you know, what’s yours? Then you’re also more likely to get out of your own way.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: Sounds so straight. You know, it, it’s, it’s a complex thing though, right? What about you? Yeah, yeah,

Kyle Buller: yeah. I love that you bring up like the, the team aspect. I mean, that’s definitely been a [00:28:00] lot of my work too, like hosting groups, whether it’s breath work groups or we’re doing, um, you know, international retreats.

Kyle Buller: Um, just having other people to check in with. And, you know, for me it is a lot of like, you know, just body awareness and thinking like, okay, what’s coming up? Is this me? Is this actually, you know, for the client, for the participant? Um, if I feel like it’s a little bit for me, I have to like, really dig in and, and like think about that.

Kyle Buller: Um, and so I always try to use that, that weight acronym, like why am I talking, why am I treating, et cetera. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, like a good example of this is we had somebody at a retreat or workshop one time. They were. Just very vocal. Mm-hmm. And there is a part of me that was like, I need to tell this person to stop because it’s de like disturbing everybody else.

Kyle Buller: Mm-hmm. Um, and so I’m like, you know, bringing it in. I checked in with other facilitator and, [00:29:00] you know, I was like, what should we do here? And I think they even said, well, why are you feeling like anxious? Or Why do you feel like you need to stop this? I’m like. At the root of it, I feel like I’m being a bad facilitator.

Kyle Buller: You know? ’cause I’m worried about everybody else. Like, is everybody else like being disrupted by this? Um, and you know, we made the decision not to, to intervene and, and let that person’s process like ride. But it is really hard. ’cause I think also as like therapists and helpers and whatnot, we want to feel like we’re productive.

Kyle Buller: And I think feeling productive is like either talking or trying to do something and like just pulling back and like, as you mentioned, like actually it’s really helpful. You’re actually doing a lot by not intervening or, or doing anything at, at those times. But it’s hard. I think that’s like the hardest thing to try to like unlearn as like a helper.

Kyle Buller: It’s like really allowing people to trust their own process and that, you know, that they’ll, um, and to create that [00:30:00] space for them to, to do that exploration. Have agency over it a bit more. But it’s, it’s tough.

Esme Dark: Yeah. Totally. And you know, I’m trained in sensory motor psychotherapy with them, the Pat Ogden school.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: And you know, one of the things I was reflecting on in my training, you know, that one of the, uh, 10, the basic kind of principles is that sometimes when the nervous system is dysregulated, it’s because there’s a stuck defensive response within the body that needs to come through. Um, and when we did our training, that was kind of, we were taught, you know, the sort of main ones that people might think of, like a push or a kick or a mm-hmm.

Esme Dark: Right. You know, and you’re not doing those fast. When you move a stuck defense response through the body to re help with the nervous system reset, it’s very slow and mindful and pressurized. But what I was thinking about when I think about my psychedelic work in dosing is that it’s really taught me that people’s bodies.

Esme Dark: And the movements that need to happen are so much more idiosyncratic than that. Mm. [00:31:00] You know, and actually, like, if I think about that case I mentioned where I was trying to help that, that person and, and that movement was useful for them previously and, and after, um, but it wasn’t the right moment then, you know?

Esme Dark: Right. They needed to do something else and it might be just a, a shaking or a pushing in a different way. Could be anything really, you know? Um, and I think that’s been a big learning for me too. I kind of just really, I never knew what’s gonna happen in, on a dose day. I might think I do, I might have dosed, worked with someone a lot of times, but you never know.

Kyle Buller: You have to be prepare prepared for uncertainty and the unknown in this work. Right.

Esme Dark: Yep.

Kyle Buller: Yeah,

Esme Dark: absolutely.

Kyle Buller: Where do you think the overlap is between like, um, psychedelic work and somatic work? You know, I know Somatics has been very popular, um, recently and there’s a lot more talk about like nervous system regulation and learning [00:32:00] how to like work with the body.

Kyle Buller: Um, do you find that it is a powerful adjunct to psychedelic therapy? Um, or as you’re saying too, like, you know, maybe I need to pull back and actually not do this thing right now. Right.

Esme Dark: Yeah. I find it really, really helpful for what I was just talking about in terms of learning how to track.

Kyle Buller: Hmm.

Esme Dark: I feel like it taught me how to track a body and the posture and even from the first, uh, preparation session, if I think about my work on the, uh, generalized anxiety disorder trial where people that we are working with their nervous systems were really, really, really heightened.

Esme Dark: You know, I am. I think even from the first session, I’m, I’m, I’m checking out like, okay, how are they holding their body? How do they relate to their body? Like, where are they? I, I noticed that they, they’re sitting really tense in a particular part of the body. I might get curious about that. Um, because I guess one of the ways that I understand anxiety, sometimes it’s [00:33:00] different for everyone, but it’s like a kind of disconnection with the body.

Esme Dark: Even though the body is talking emotionality in the body can, um, you know, you can have a lot of anxiety and then underneath that it’s grief or anger or right. You know, um, and so I find it helpful in that way to help people to kind of navigate that space to get to know their body before going into a dosing, because on those days, people will get taken there.

Esme Dark: I feel like, I guess, I guess if I think about how I’ve seen these medicines work, it, it is, you know, we spend so much time in our head in the modern world, and somatics has got really popular in the last 10 years, but we still, you know, all of us, I, most of us spend too much time in our heads. And so it, but so much of the way that we experience the world.

Esme Dark: Um, is nonverbal. And so of course these medicines will take us into that place in our body so, so often. So I think it’s helpful for people to have, [00:34:00] um, an orientation almost into some of the things that might happen.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, and I always think, and I kind of say it’s almost like we’re very somatically illiterate as a culture, and I just think about like what comes up in psychedelics.

Kyle Buller: Like people might feel different sensations, emotions and not know what to do with it. And I think at least like helping people to have practices or develop a language on like, oh, like this anxiety I’m feeling isn’t necessarily bad. Like, maybe there’s actually content to work there with. Um, and how do I work with that instead of just continuing to try to suppress it?

Kyle Buller: Um, but it takes a while I think, for people to like learn that, um, and be curious about it.

Esme Dark: Totally. A hundred, I completely agree. I love that somatically illiterate. I think we, we are, you know, like yet also so much of the time when people are suffering it’s because their body is feeling so much intensity.

Esme Dark: You know, the people I worked with [00:35:00] in the anxiety disorder trial, that was definitely true for. Um, and I think it’s also helpful, you know, if I think about, I was lucky enough to be a part of, um, a before we did the psychedelic trial with psilocybin at Monash, we did, um, another kind of trial where we had our own self experience.

Kyle Buller: Oh, cool.

Esme Dark: So yeah, the therapists, um, sat for each other in dyads, and so we did like a mini version. Um, this sort of psilocybin trial was about three months of therapy and dosing, but we did a mini version where, uh, I had like one preparation session with two therapists, one of which was my dyad partner for the trial, and then a dose day, and then an integration session, um, which was really the best training that I could have ever had, and I wish was available more freely.

Esme Dark: Mm-hmm. To, to, to psychologists and, and psychiatrists and people working in the space in Australia now. ’cause I feel like that’s one of the things that I feel most concerned about is that there’s not really [00:36:00] a legal pathway for people to do that.

Kyle Buller: I, I was just gonna ask Yeah. For folks that are starting to get involved or they able to have their own experience, or, no,

Esme Dark: it’s not legally at the moment, unless it’s part of a trial.

Esme Dark: Which people are doing and try, you know, and, and also I think it’s really important to research these things. Like to see, to research the effectiveness of that, like how useful it was. And there was a big, it was, you know, there was a lot of really good evidence that we got out of that trial. Um, and so people are doing that, but there’s not, um, that’s the complication, you know, it’s, it’s really, they’ve taken psilocybin and MDMA down from being at the same level of restriction as arsenic, which is kind of wild down level, but only one, you know.

Kyle Buller: Mm-hmm.

Esme Dark: So that’s makes it difficult.

Kyle Buller: That’s interesting. They would build a pathway for like clinical research, but not like actual practice as it’s become like legal for, for other folks. Yeah.

Esme Dark: I think that, I think it, if anything ha I think that [00:37:00] will, I think it will start to happen. Hopefully. I mean, I don’t know, but there’s a lot of people kind of advocating for that too.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: Um. We were able to do it through a trial, which is great. And I had, um, a lot of things happen from my dose day, but one of the things was a, a really intense stomach pain that came up kind of partway through. And, um, you know, I was supported with that and given, you know, a pillow to hold and, and then it continued to unfold in the evening I went home.

Esme Dark: I was picked up by wonderful support person and, um, I went home and I continued to work with it. Outside of the session and kind of, and sat in, in a, in a bath and just kind of did some breathing. And I have those practices, you know, I, I know how to do that. Um, it didn’t surprise me. Um, and so if I think about how I wanna prepare people for this, kind of, for this work, it is about that, that, that the somatic processing can also continue after the session.

Esme Dark: It’s helpful to [00:38:00] have, I, I’m curious about how you work with breathwork, actually, and how you support people with that. Um, but ’cause I think, I, I think it could be really helpful as well.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, I think, um, well I guess before I get into the breath work, like that stomach thing, did you see that as something psychosomatic or byproduct of like the psilocybin that you’re taking?

Kyle Buller: Like, you know, ’cause we talk about like nausea does come up and there might be some stomach stuff, but like, do you see it as more physiological or that was more kind of psychosomatic and there’s like emotions there that you had to continue to work with?

Esme Dark: Definitely emotional. I hold so much in my belly and I’ve had, you know, experience with this IBS my whole life and like stuff like that.

Esme Dark: So there is, uh, it felt very emotional and in the session. I came out and said to my lovely therapist, you know, I’ve got this really bad stomach pain and it’s really, I go, I don’t wanna go there. And, and they were like, is that something that you need to go towards? Maybe, do you need some [00:39:00] support? Would you like a pillow?

Esme Dark: We can come and hold your hand. You know, they were, uh, and they encouraged me to go back. Um, I did change my body position, which I also think can be really helpful. You know, if I think about like, being able to, I sat up and not lying down anymore. Um, I also really always like to have a yoga mat on the floor for, for people and me as the, a facilitator.

Esme Dark: Um, but I kind of went, I, and so I sat down, closed my eyes, and I went in and I had some really big insights come through during that. Process, process. And so that continued to come through later. Um, outside of that, so kind of almost like, um, sort of really a lot of download of information and, and processing of emotion.

Esme Dark: So yeah, I definitely felt psychosomatic to me.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. I always feel like I need to like, move that energy when it’s coming up. Like I feel like when I’m just like stuck and like rigid, it just gets like more intense. Um, so to be able to like, like move and, and breathe [00:40:00] into it, I think is, can be really important.

Kyle Buller: But, um, yeah, I think for me, like u using breath beforehand can be really impactful. ’cause I think sometimes when we’re in those really deep experiences, people sometimes forget to breathe in a way, you know?

Esme Dark: Mm-hmm.

Kyle Buller: And. When something really difficult’s coming up to just like, you know, practice before going in.

Kyle Buller: Like what does it feel like to like sit with those emotions? And so sometimes before, um, doing ketamine therapy with clients, I would actually just do some short breath work sessions. Mm-hmm. So we could like, just see what it’s like to like induce a non-ordinary state without a substance first, learn how to like, navigate big emotions when they come up in that state.

Kyle Buller: And then just to help do a little bit of that preparation. And then on, I think during the session, um, you know, just returning to the breath when things get really gnarly. Um, and people feel like what’s going on. Um, and I know for [00:41:00] me, like my, in my personal experiences, like if I didn’t have all that like breath work stuff, I, you know, it would’ve been really challenging.

Kyle Buller: Um, I just think about like my experiences before breath work and then like after doing more breath work and how that those breath work practices. Help to deepen the intensity in a, in a different way for some sort of like, resolution instead of trying to like push it away and be like, oh, I don’t wanna feel this, right.

Kyle Buller: This is too much. It’s like, it allows me to like be with the experience even though it can be really intense. Um.

Esme Dark: Mm-hmm.

Kyle Buller: And then on the other side, being able to like, use it as like an integration tool. Um,

Esme Dark: yeah,

Kyle Buller: yeah. Allowing people to like do some circular breathing to get back into that state. Maybe it helps with like a little bit of resolution.

Kyle Buller: Um, but I think like after psychedelics, you kind of, I think timing’s interesting. I remember we did, um, a session, a breath work thing, like at a retreat and the folks that had the session the day [00:42:00] before. Felt like it was too activating, but the people that dosed two days prior said it actually felt like it helped to resolve a lot of things that like were left unresolved.

Kyle Buller: So it helped to like bring some of that back to the surface, um, for, for more processing. Um,

Esme Dark: that’s really interesting. Yeah, I can imagine that. Like, you know, that, that would be really helpful. You know, I, um, in, in the, in that integration space, like I, I remember I did, um. A ho because a holotropic breathwork workshop with some colleagues.

Esme Dark: And you know, I guess that is when we, when we were training for the, I think this was later, I think it was for the MDMA assisted psychotherapy trial, not the psilocybin one. Um, but like I’m writing, um, a clinical intervention at the moment for a new trial that’s in development, which is, um, looking at psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and partnering with men’s behavior change, um, for, for men who perpetrate [00:43:00] violence.

Esme Dark: And so it’s a pretty complex area and we’re still developing it at the moment, but really thinking about this question of how to support. The therapists mm-hmm. Into, to learning how to do this work. And I was thinking about breath work as a, an a legal option.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: Um, and holotropic breathwork, you can go so deep.

Esme Dark: I remember, I thought, I listened to you talk about this and you were saying that you were a little bit skeptical the very first time I was You did any breath work?

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: I was so skeptical and I was blown away by the experience and I was so surprised. I said, well, how is this gonna do anything? And then the next thing you know, I was in a very deep process.

Esme Dark: Um. Being supported, we kinda set it up. So it was a similar sort of support structure to what would happen in a psychedelic session, which was really helpful in, in learning how to do this work. Yeah,

Kyle Buller: yeah. I remember I was chatting with Rick Dolin about this and seeing like, you know, ’cause a lot of folks do use breath work as a training modality, as like [00:44:00] a, you know, a legal way.

Kyle Buller: And he said, you know, I think it’s really great for like psilocybin therapy because you’re very hands off. But with like MDMA therapy, since it’s a little bit more like, you know, a little bit more talking, it might not actually like be maybe the best thing. But I think it does help to teach you to like be with yourself.

Kyle Buller: And I think that’s the most important thing when it comes to that training. It’s like, how do we just be with ourself when there’s big catharsis going on without always needing to like intervene right away. And I think that comes back to like getting out of our own way, right? It’s like, oh, I’m feeling triggered right now.

Kyle Buller: ’cause somebody’s having like this, this big thing unfold and. How do I stick with my breath? How do I stick with my body and just like, not need to, to, to do that and intervene, but

Esme Dark: yes. Right. I, I’m smiling because, um, I was teaching about this on recently and, um, you know, I think it just takes a lot of practice and it’s great [00:45:00] if you have two of you, because sometimes, you know, as a therapist, we’re gonna be, something’s gonna come up for us and someone’s having a big release or being, being, you know, loud or distressed or, or, or, or in, you know, panicking, right?

Esme Dark: Mm-hmm. Which is kind of one of the harder things I think if someone starts to panic and

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: You know, gets really distressed that way and it’s so contagious, that nervous system activation. Yeah. And so learning how to just. Really ground and knowing when you need to take a moment and your co-therapist can have a go for those of us that are fortunate enough to work that way.

Esme Dark: I know it’s not always the case, but, um, it’s really important.

Kyle Buller: It’s interesting, yeah. How like, somebody else’s experience can really impact us. And you’re saying panic. And when you mention that, I remember an experience where somebody was like dealing with a lot of panic and anxiety and they needed to go outside and I could feel that like, even though I felt like I was like grounded, like as soon as we like left that [00:46:00] container, I could feel the panic and anxiety like way more where I’m like, Ooh, like maybe we should go back inside where it feels safer.

Kyle Buller: Um, but yeah, those mirror neurons, right. And like we’re co-regulating with each other in, in a way.

Esme Dark: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Even just thinking about the case that I’m, I’m, there’s been a few people with, in a generalized anxiety disorder, understandably people might meet something and maybe this is flowing us into that shadow work conversation.

Esme Dark: They might meet a part of themselves that’s really scary and they’re really afraid and they kind of wanna, they, you know, whip the eyes. Shes the headphones off and they wanna run away. And I so understand that, you know, and I remember really, I think that’s when you can get pulled eye can get pulled into trying to do too much as well sometimes.

Esme Dark: Mm-hmm. Be like get talk too much kind of, and actually. You know what a person needs when they’re like, that is really less words. Calm

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: Space. Um, [00:47:00] but it happens quickly, right? Like I can even feel a bit of a memory of that in my body as I’m talking, you know, like, oh no, what do I do? They, you

Kyle Buller: know.

Kyle Buller: Exactly. Um, you’ve mentioned like rip the headphones off and like the eye shades off. I think that’s something I’ve had to like also unlearn in a bit. Like when I was doing a lot more ketamine therapy with folks, I noticed those with like pretty significant trauma. Had a really hard time actually, like wanting to put headphones and eye shades on.

Kyle Buller: And that kind of challenged me in a way ’cause it’s like, you know, this is the framework which we come from. And I had to be like, actually, what would it look like if we took more of this like trauma-informed relational approach and say, yeah, maybe we don’t need to do that right away. We, maybe we can get there and we can take like small steps to that so you can feel safe instead of saying like, you need to do it this way.

Kyle Buller: Um, and that was like a big challenge, challenge for me to like unlearn, be like, oh, okay, even though like I’ve been taught [00:48:00] this framework, this is like how we do everything. Maybe it’s okay for somebody not to wear headphones and eye shades right off the bat. Um, with, with some of this stuff, like how do we, I always say it’s like how do we get in the water and swim together?

Kyle Buller: Um, so we feel safe enough, um, to, to go in, into the deep end together.

Esme Dark: Yeah, that’s beautiful metaphor. And I think, um, how do we, yeah, how do we do this together? Because we, we often say, or I often say like, we are with you, like wherever you’re going, we are here, we’ve got this, we’ve got you, we’ve got the, we’ll look after you physical body as well and make sure that everything is safe on the couch.

Esme Dark: And, um, and yeah, I think, I think it is really important to go with what feels okay for the person in the space, you know? Um, and I’ve certainly had people who just wanna close their eyes. Yeah. And, and people who wanna sit up, people who wanna get up and move, you know, and I think there’s a bit of an implicit message in the protocol sometimes that [00:49:00] we should all lie down on the couch and not move.

Esme Dark: And I’m a super kinetic person. I’m standing up right now. Me too. Yeah. I kind of, yeah. Yeah. And I, I have to have like, um, a yoga map for myself, but also I feel like it encourages other people to get down onto the mat too and move their body. Um, which is really important, I think.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. You were bringing up the shadow and, um,

Esme Dark: yes.

Kyle Buller: How do you define shadow work? What is shadow work to you?

Esme Dark: Yeah. Thank you. I think, um, you know, it’s, it’s, I was just reflecting on this and, um, I really liked, I I, I know you did a course not so long ago with the integration circle and, um, it was that, that actually the shadow can have this idea that it’s something really hard, right?

Esme Dark: Like it’s something really dark and like inherently negative. But so often in my experience as a therapist, it’s actually something that, that the person might shut off is any, any part of themselves that they kind of put into their unconscious because [00:50:00] they deem it somehow unacceptable. And that might be wanting to be an artist, as you said, on, on, on that course, when your family really wants you to be.

Esme Dark: In a corporate job. And I think, you know, it really got me thinking about the people I’ve worked with. And so, so often at the core of whatever kind of therapy we’re doing, whether it’s psychedelic work or other kind of work, is that there’s a part of themselves that they really wanna bring into the world, but they feel they can’t.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: And the tension of that builds and builds and gets called depression or anxiety or, you know, and, and, and so, uh, very often we kind of wanna take someone down to meet those parts within themselves and to bring that out into the open, you know?

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: It’s not to say that the shadows, not all can, it can also obviously be parts of us holding pain.

Esme Dark: You know, I’m an IFS therapist as well as, um, the other types of therapy and I kind of, that the idea of that we xr these child parts of ourselves that are [00:51:00] holding pain is also something that. Feels important to me.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. And like what are those like golden parts that want to come out? I remember, um, somebody saying like, shouldn’t therapy or psychedelic experiences like always be hard, like, am I not doing the work if I’m not like going into like the pain and grief?

Kyle Buller: Um, and you know, I tried to challenge that, like kind of thinking about this golden shadow aspect, knowing that like. Maybe your nervous system actually needs to rest and what does that, and you could automatically like just see, I don’t wanna do that. Right. It’s like, actually maybe that’s where the work is.

Kyle Buller: Like how do we actually find rest in the nervous system instead of always chewing up the the darkness? Um, and that can be really hard, right? Because I think when we think about the quote unquote work, we think about those darker aspects. I need to get to the bottom of this wound, but. As you’re saying too, like what about those like exile [00:52:00] parts that really wanna shine, that really wanna like be expressed that want to be the artist that wants to like, you know, start a podcast or create a substack or like, you know, put their voice out there.

Kyle Buller: Um, but that other part saying don’t do that, you’re not worthy of it. Um, you know, and so then you have this interplay between that shadow, that more darker part, but then there’s other part that really just wants to come out and say, Hey, this is who I am. Um, and I think that’s the integration. I think that’s really where, kind of like the work is.

Kyle Buller: It’s like how do we bridge that gap there? Um. Because, yeah, it just might get exiled again. And if we’re using that like parts, work language.

Esme Dark: Yeah, exactly. And you know, I remember a dosing session on the psilocybin trial and one of the participants just started singing, beautiful little beautiful voice, and my co-therapist and I was so deeply moved, you know, that she was just.

Esme Dark: That they were doing [00:53:00] that, that they were singing. Mm-hmm. And we were like, wow. Yeah. And, and, and it was like that creative expression was just coming through, you know? Yeah. And I mean, I, I actually am someone who’s pretty terrified of public speaking as, as historically, right? Yeah. Yeah. And like, and, and so for me, doing a podcast was a huge push.

Esme Dark: Like it was a, you know, there’s the professional reasons, but also a personal journey of like, I, I have stuff I wanna say about this field at this moment. Yeah. And I’m, I’m gonna do it.

Kyle Buller: What made you kind of get over that? Or like, how have you been working with that edge to step into that a little bit more?

Esme Dark: Um, I guess like, you know, I think it’s feeling the tension and being kind to those. Those parts. You know, I feel really well supported by my wonderful colleagues who, you know, even today, you know, live stream is a scary thing, right? Like, for me anyway, [00:54:00] and, and my colleagues just really supporting me and my friends, but also like noticing those parts and going, oh, okay.

Esme Dark: It’s all right. It’s okay. We’ve got this. We can, we can do it. You know? Um, and, and I have a beautiful therapist who I’ve worked with for many years. Um, I think it’s really important as a therapist to have your own therapy. I go in and out of that, and the reason that I use IFS, um, a lot in my practice is because I’ve benefited so much from it myself.

Esme Dark: And so I really find that working with those parts within me helpful and noticing them somatically.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: And, and, you know, grounding, I’m always, I, I, I’ve got no shoes on. I find like standing and having my feet on the ground squishing my toes. Yeah, it’s really helpful for this kind of stuff.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: Um, yeah.

Kyle Buller: And do you ever, like, I’m noticing like you’re holding your, your, uh, hand there. Like are you, do you notice like a knot or anything that ever comes up? Um,

Esme Dark: yeah, yeah, [00:55:00] yeah. It, it’s, it’s here, it’s like a little knot here. Mm-hmm. Um, used to be here actually, but I don’t get that as much now.

Kyle Buller: Mm-hmm.

Esme Dark: Um, but it’s often here and so I just kind of hold that place and breathe into it a little bit.

Esme Dark: Sometimes reminders from my community to take care of those parts of myself before I do things like this.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: But I do that myself too.

Kyle Buller: Well, thank you for showing up and, you know, doing the work and letting that like golden shadow shine and it’s tough. Um, I think I’ve probably talked about it here and there, but I have like the same type of like, you know, wound in, in the way around like that throat chakra.

Kyle Buller: And this has been a really tough, tough journey, um, over the years of like, you know, I remember sometimes we would, um, put episodes out when we first started and I’m like, I don’t wanna put that out to the world. And Joe’s like, we gotta put it out. And I’m like. Uh, can we edit it a little bit more? Can we like delete it?

Kyle Buller: Can we like redo it? And all of a sudden the [00:56:00] episode goes out and you’re like, cringing a bit and you’re like, uh, but then like, you know, somebody might like reach out and go, that was awesome episode. And I always come back to it’s like, you know, we’re, we’re our own worst critic. Um, and yeah, like how do we like get out of our own way at that times?

Kyle Buller: But still does, doesn’t make it easy. Um, really doesn’t make it easy. It’s definitely one of these challenges that, um,

Esme Dark: I didn’t know that about you, Kyle. I, yeah, I that’s, I, I’m, I’m really glad that you put, put, got out of your own way and put this all out there. You know, 300 and something episodes in now, right?

Kyle Buller: Uh, like 800, I think.

Esme Dark: 800.

Kyle Buller: Oh. Between me and between me and Joe. Um,

Esme Dark: amazing. Wow.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. So,

Esme Dark: and do you still ever get like that or you kind of, it’s not so, oh, totally much of it. You do? Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And public speaking. I hate public speaking ironically. Um, it’s funny, I can do this stuff, um, or like teach, um, but like sometimes I remember I [00:57:00] did a, a conference, like in person, the entire ride down.

Kyle Buller: I was like having a panic attack. It’s like, uh, um, yeah, and I could notice it. It was like all in the throat. I’m like, you know, I constantly clear my throat. I always feel like there’s something in there. Um, but yeah, it’s like this, uh, it’s all kind of like shadow wound, um, that has showed up for me trans personally in psychedelic and breath work experiences.

Kyle Buller: Um, I know. Astrology is a little kind of controversial still at times in certain circles, but it’s also represented in there as well, like where my Chiron placement is and, and stuff like that. And then I could look at like, you know, my biographical history and like the amount of times where it felt like my voice was suppressed.

Kyle Buller: Um, I’m also like, I, I don’t have a formal diagnosis, but like definitely dyslexic at times. Um, so like, I’ll screw words up. Like, uh, when I grew up in, um, like reading out loud was like the most terrifying thing, and I would have so much anxiety in [00:58:00] school and like, I would always screw words up and like, you know, my classmates would always laugh at me and stuff like that.

Kyle Buller: And I still, you know, I find myself like screwing words up or like, you know, I’d mix things up or can’t say a word and, but, um, I think I’ve learned to just find humor in it. It’s like, you know, my imperfections and we’re all human, um, and we all have our imperfections and, and that’s okay. So

Esme Dark: Totally. Yeah.

Esme Dark: A hundred percent. I think it’s one of the most common fears. Public speaking. I was talking to a friend who’s doing a course about it recently about, about the same thing. You know, I, I remember I, I got, I did a talk once at the Australian Childhood Trauma Conference when I was in my refugee work days.

Esme Dark: And I was meant to be in, um, like a, a small kind of workshop space, which is I was kind of doing something in the small room and because of some scheduling, they bumped me to the main room with the podium and everything with like 20 minutes notice, which is kind of good. ’cause I didn’t really have time to run away, which is exactly what I wanted to do.

Kyle Buller: [00:59:00] Yeah, yeah.

Esme Dark: Um, it’s terrifying, you know? And like it was, I really had to, I I, I almost didn’t do it, you know, but I, I pushed through that anxiety a little bit and it was okay. You know, and people are so, yeah, people. PII think one of the, I had a really beautiful piece of feedback about the podcast recently that someone said that there was an episode I did with Bruce and Marsai that they had shared with a, with a client who had found it really helpful for helping them to prepare.

Esme Dark: And so for me, I was like, yeah, that’s, that’s great. That’s kind of one of the reasons I wanted to put it out there.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, that stuff’s priceless. Like that type of feedback to like hear be like, oh wow. Like, you know, it’s actually like having an impact in a way. Um, and I think that’s like what keeps me showing up at times.

Kyle Buller: But, um, for all of you listening, you know, hopefully it’s motivation to, you know, step into some work that maybe you’re scared of or hesitant. It’s like that is that shadow work, right? Like [01:00:00] just being able to address some of that and the integration is like showing up, uh, to do it, which, but it’s also terrifying.

Kyle Buller: You’re like, ugh, frees up and, yeah.

Esme Dark: Totally. Yeah,

Kyle Buller: totally. Do you have a formal, like back, I was gonna say, do you have like a formal background in any sort of like Jungian psychology or,

Esme Dark: I am. I, I’ve done, I’m not a Jungian therapist, but I’ve done some training in process work and I feel like, oh, cool. I am someone who.

Esme Dark: I, I think it’s kind of always been the underlying kind of principles of how I work. So when I worked in, um, the refugee mental health space, I always did a lot of sand tray work.

Kyle Buller: Oh, cool.

Esme Dark: So I don’t know if people will be familiar with that. So you kind of, I was working with young people and kids actually, and families then.

Esme Dark: So that’s where you kind of have a sand tray of a particular type of figurines, and then you just, you create a space that feels safe and that the, the person will create worlds and just free [01:01:00] freely with the, with the, uh, uh, with the different things that they put in the tray. And I was astounded by how amazingly people were able to communicate with me that about things that they wouldn’t have been able to, even though we were working with interpreters a lot.

Esme Dark: So, yeah. So I, I think it’s, I think the idea that. The core idea that the psyche given the right conditions will move towards healing. An individuation is something that has underlined so much of what I do, but I’m not trained, I would not like to call myself a Youngian Allen or anything like that.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Buller: Awesome. And do you see like, um, well I guess, uh, something else popped in my head. Sorry, kind of going off. That’s fine. Um, process work, is that like Mendel’s process work or,

Esme Dark: yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, and I think that’s been something, you know, some colleagues of mine are, are really deep in that space, um, at the clinical psychedelic lab at Monash.

Esme Dark: Um, and I definitely have been really influenced by that, but [01:02:00] also have done a lot of reading and my own work with that model as well.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, I love Mendel’s work. It’s pretty interesting. Um,

Esme Dark: yeah.

Kyle Buller: And do you see like, kind of like this, like archetypal process, Jungian shadow work, like really important for psychedelics or like the integration process?

Esme Dark: I, yeah, I think it just seems to naturally take people into those places of depth within the psyche, right? You know, that’s kind of how, one way, I mean, there’s many ways to understand how psychedelics work, of course, but it feels to me that that’s, that people often go into those places. And so I think it is helpful.

Esme Dark: You know, I’m always really careful not to, um. Impose any particular frame on somebody. But I think having that knowledge around archetypes and the collective unconscious, um, and different energies and, and archetypes that might emerge is really helpful as a therapist to kind of help guide, um, to help guide the, the person, but [01:03:00] also to help guide myself and understanding it.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: Yeah. What, what about you, Kyle?

Kyle Buller: I’ve found it to be, yeah, really important for like trying to understand all the weirdness that comes up in psychedelics. Like when there’s a lot of like symbology symbols kind of archetypes to arise. It’s like, what’s my relationship to that? And as you’re saying, it’s like not to necessarily like put a framework on it for somebody, but I guess my take is like, how do we get more curious about that stuff that’s arising and like here’s like kind of a map that we can use as a way to like understand like, yeah.

Kyle Buller: How have other people kind of explored um, this stuff in the past? Like, I’m really interested in dreamwork, um, and. You know, there’s just so much interesting stuff that comes through dreams, and I feel like dreams are inherently psychedelic in a way. Um, yeah. And, you know, it’s like how can we use that to also, you know, do integration work, continue the ongoing [01:04:00] process there.

Kyle Buller: Um, and you know, the, the mind and the psyche are so vast and so depth, um, you know, there’s so much depth there and it’s like, what does it all mean? You know? And I think that’s like where the analytical mind comes in. It’s like, oh, what does this all mean? I could just sit here and like, think about it all day.

Kyle Buller: Um, but I think it helps to just provide a little bit of context, um, to like, maybe how do we make sense of. These things that are arising in the psyche. I always think about something a teacher told me, it’s like, you know, being lost at sea without a map is terrifying. Um, and I think it is important for us to have some sort of map of the psyche, um, how whatever that is for people, you know, maybe it’s like more religious, maybe it’s more depth oriented psychology approaches.

Kyle Buller: Maybe it’s this, maybe it’s that. But I think developing some sort of map can be a, a grounding rod for folks. Um, otherwise you’re just like untethered.

Esme Dark: A hundred percent. I really, and, and I, I, I completely agree. And I think it’s, so, it, it, [01:05:00] you know, it’s taken me back to my, very many years ago I did a, um, my doctorate research was actually about how people understand their experience of what was termed in the literature, like paranoia and paranoid delusions.

Esme Dark: And in that research there, it was really interesting to notice how people made sense of things in different ways and how important it was to be curious and to ask. And, and I bring that curiosity to the psychedelic space, but sometimes people really are like, is that, is that a literal thing? Or knowledge?

Esme Dark: Right. Or like, and I think that’s where some of the arc, you know, speaking, able to speak from a youngian frame can be really helpful to help people go. Okay. Like let, let’s not necessarily take everything. Literally that’s important in psychedelics. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: As, uh, Terrence McKenna used to say, psychedelics seem to foster funny ideas.

Kyle Buller: Um,

Esme Dark: yeah.

Kyle Buller: And, uh, you know, sometimes we have really great insights, really great ideas that come through, but sometimes we [01:06:00] also need to like, learn discernment and go, yeah, you know, maybe that’s not. You know, something I should be paying attention to all the time. Um, and I think that, I think that’s a really important skill that we should all learn.

Kyle Buller: Like, how do we discern information that comes through to us? Um, when do we believe it as like, ultimate truth? Or when do we believe it as like something, okay, this is like interesting. Maybe I could like shelf it and come back to it, um, later at, at another point.

Esme Dark: Yeah. You know, I, I, I think, uh, I’ve spoken about this before in the podcast, but I had a, in the journey at Monash, I had this thing come up that said, you should learn to sing.

Kyle Buller: Mm. And

Esme Dark: I was like, that’s weird. I can’t sing. I don’t, I don’t know about that. That doesn’t sound like something that I wanna do. And, um, but I sat with it and I thought, oh, you know, maybe I’ll call a singing teacher. And, and then, um, you know, over the months it was like, no, this is, you should do the podcast.

Esme Dark: So [01:07:00] that’s, it became this kind of different thing. That was the integration piece for me. It’s like, what did that mean for you?

Kyle Buller: Right?

Esme Dark: It meant, it meant this, and that feels right to me now. Um, yeah.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Using your voice. Right. And so it’s like singing could be symbolic of using your voice in lots of different ways.

Kyle Buller: Um,

Esme Dark: totally.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Esme Dark: Yeah. And that was the integration of sitting with not acting straight away and, um, and seeing what really felt right. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. For me, that’s beautiful.

Esme Dark: Mm-hmm.

Kyle Buller: Awesome. Well, I see that we’re over an hour this time. Yes. Just flew by here. Um,

Esme Dark: yes.

Kyle Buller: Anything that you wanna close with for today?

Esme Dark: Yeah. Um, maybe where people can find me. Yeah, so you can find me at my, if people wanna find out any anything or just get in touch, you can find me on my website, um, which is just Esme Dark Psychology. Um, I, I’ll put all this in the show notes for you. I’m also over on Instagram, just Dr. Esme Dark, and then you [01:08:00] can find the clinical psychedelic lab at Monash.

Esme Dark: If you just Google that, you can find that as well, so you can find out about the research that we’re up to. We’ve got so many cool projects starting next year. I’ve only spoken about really one of them. Um, and. Next year I’ll be running a workshop for anyone in Australia. So an in-person workshop around somatic approaches to psychedelic therapies, and then hopefully some online workshops as well.

Esme Dark: Um, if I have the time, it’s so busy, right. Trying to do all the things, but I’m really keen to do that. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: And I know this is also gonna go out to your audience, um, and it’s going out to our audience as well, but your podcast too beyond the trip, right? Yes. So people can find you there.

Esme Dark: Yeah, they can find me at Beyond the Trip podcast and we’ve actually just very recently started to be on YouTube, so I’ve been going for about a year and about 12 episodes in, I think.

Esme Dark: Nice. I’ve got lots of exciting stuff coming up. Yeah. Next year. Um, you know, that special that I spoke about, about, um, the [01:09:00] potential use of psychedelics at end of life. I’ve got some interviews, Dr. Bill Richards, who’s already been on the podcast. I’ve already recorded some. Um, and then Dr. Mar Ross, who did the first clinical psychedelic trial in Australia with people with end of life.

Esme Dark: If you But the end of life. So yeah. Amazing nots coming up. Yeah. Amazing.

Kyle Buller: Well, thank you for all the work that you’re doing and yeah, showing up.

Esme Dark: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Kyle. Yeah, it’s been really great. It went really quickly, didn’t it? Maybe we’ll have to, we’ll have to do another one sometime.

Kyle Buller: Part two. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you everybody for tuning in as well, and we’ll catch everybody later. So thank you again.