Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hi everybody psychedelics Today back. We have Ismael Ali from Maps and Betty Aldworth from Maps with the co-executive directors. Thank you both for joining.

Betty Aldworth: Absolutely. So happy to be here. Yeah.

Ismail Ali: Glad to be here.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so I guess when, when did you all get appointed with this new role?

Betty Aldworth: So. Um, last year around this time, we made the announcement and we rolled into interim co-executive directorship at the end of March last year, beginning of April. I refused to let us name, uh, make the date April 1st. Uh, so March 31st. And, uh,

Ismail Ali: we were close though. We were close though. We’re like, can we,

Betty Aldworth: can we [00:01:00] make this funny?

It’s always a question for us. Um, and then, um, in, I think September of last year mm-hmm. Um, it was, it had become official and was announced, uh, following a, a handful of, um, interviews with some really exceptional folks who were applying for the role and who were excited to be in partnership in different ways now.

And, um, but yeah, so, uh, September of last year, I think it was officially announced that we would be no longer interim.

Ismail Ali: Right. Right.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Awesome. And I’m sure it’s been quite the ride, like you’ve been quite busy, um, doing your own, uh, kind of angling of the organization or how would we wanna even put that you got like, here’s your new job, like here’s this big organization.

Go for it.

Ismail Ali: Yeah, I can, a little bit of context. Yeah. It’s like, ’cause you know, my, my, uh, pithy answer to your question was gonna be, well, who’s counting? You know, it kind of depends on [00:02:00] what line you’re drawing because there have been mm-hmm. All these kind of points of transition in the last, you could say a year and a half from the point of the f FDA decision.

Mm-hmm. And then the aftermath and then, um, but I would say, you know, to, to the question Betty and I had, especially for those that aren’t familiar, been kind of the senior program directors myself on the policy and advocacy side. Um, supporting also some of the legal work and then Betty with communications and marketing and education and like, so in many ways we had been holding a lot of the large kind of programmatic areas and, um.

You know, both have our own backgrounds and experience that we can maybe go more into in this conversation. Um, but it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s felt a little bit like a very, very smooth stepwise transition over 18 months to get us to today. And also there’s like multiple clear threshold points, right? There’s like the FDA decision in 2024.

There’s, to Betty’s point, this March 31st, not April 1st point of us [00:03:00] kind of stepping into the interim co-executive director roles while the search was going on from the board side for the following six or so months. And then there was the threshold of last September. And I would say I would add one more, which is probably this spring where, um, I don’t wanna speak too soon, but after, to your point, Joe, uh, quite a bit of tending to, you know, I was, I’ve been joking with Betty, that’s kind of like channeling our inner janitor where like, all right, what is going, what, what’s been going on?

How has the organization, uh. Taken shape in all these different places, whether it’s with our programs, with the visible store, with the reputation, with like how we operate internally as a staff. Really just looking at each of these systematically and, um, tending, you know, trying to, trying to, uh, create some sort of cohesion.

And I, I can really start to feel that come together, um, as we enter 2026

Joe Moore: outstanding. Um, yeah, it’s gonna be really interesting to see, um, you know, what that looks [00:04:00] like 20, 26 and beyond. I think the, you know, the phase we’re at in the drug wars, you know, kind of late drug war maybe we could call it. Mm-hmm.

Betty Aldworth: I hope so.

Joe Moore: Things, version of it.

Ismail Ali: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Like Right. Some version of it. And like the, the data is becoming so compelling that, you know, what arguments are there beyond cruelty at this point to keep it going and, you know, maybe shareholder return, but I think mm-hmm. There’s. It can be a lot of really interesting movement as MDMA psilocybin and other drugs come across the finish line.

Right. Like a, any kinda speculations there about how legalization through kind normal FDA channels might impact drug war?

Ismail Ali: You wanna go first?

Joe Moore: You two are both kind of scholars on this one. It’s a big question too, but

Betty Aldworth: Yeah. I honestly, Joe, I’ve been doing this long enough that I’m, I’ve become quite skeptical, which is out of my nature, um

Ismail Ali: mm-hmm.

Betty Aldworth: Around, um, you know, sort of [00:05:00] institutional, um, progress and any fundamental changes to the way that the criminal legal system and so many other systems seek to punish people. Um, and I, that saddens me. Um, but it also inspires me to keep doing the work beyond medicalization and to make sure that that’s, you know, where a lot of.

Maps energy is focused and that we’re still always tuned in. If we look at the cannabis industry, which is where you and I first met the cannabis advocacy and industry space so many years ago now, um, that has, you know, so much progress has been made, um, through, uh, state-based reforms. Um, but it has barely touched the medical system, right?

Uh, the, the institutional medical system, uh, the FDA and prescriptions and insurers and physicians, that sort of thing. Um, and so it feels like what we know [00:06:00] is so far disconnected from what that. Healthcare provision institution is doing, and then what the criminal legal system is doing and all of the systems that are, um, interacting there.

So I have become, unfortunately, a bit of a skeptic about impacts of FDA decisions on the broader drug war. I will say though, it’s really important to note that like the more questions. We can in insert into people’s minds about is this drug war thing valid? You know, whether that’s in the form of wait, cannabis can be used for medical use, or MDMA or psilocybin can be used to address serious mental health conditions.

Or, you know, like it causes people to start thinking a little bit differently about what they were taught through the DARE program and other prohibitionist um, practices and, and, and programs that are really not evidence-based. So with the more [00:07:00] evidence we can bring and the more questions we can create, the more progress we make.

And that’s where it’s really related.

Joe Moore: Yeah.

Ismail Ali: Yeah. And maybe I can, I can just riff, riff on that a little bit. I mean, um, I agree with Betty on that larger theme and one of the interesting things about this last kind of phase that maps has been really, um, confronting this sort of normative narrative within the psychedelic field that, um, to your point, Betty, that.

Um, if people just see the research, if they just see that these benefits, and, and I think to the extent, you know, as you said to the, to an extent that’s very true. And there’s no doubt, you know, I was thinking about this when I was talking to like a younger family member recently, and when I was 19, I just didn’t even have a concept that there could be this therapeutic use when it took me time to get to that.

Right. And the fact that that, um, detail is now kind of part of the zeitgeist, I think is actually a sign of significant progress, even if you’re only looking at it from like a narrative perspective. Like what information is contained within the package of information people get about drugs, whether it’s from TV or [00:08:00] movies or society or school or whatever.

So that clearly, I think, demonstrates progress and that comes from the sort of like visibility of the research and so on. Um, and for a long time I kind of went through this period of deep skepticism similar to what you were just describing, Betty, where I’m like, but it’s not enough. There’s gonna be, you need this social or cultural or kind of relational changes.

And I still think that’s true. But I’ve sort of like this sort of a horseshoe theory thing here where I’m kind of back around to this, like maybe delirious optimism, which comes from this idea that, um, when these, uh, just, uh, more complex narratives kind of absorb into society at different ages, and you, you’re seeing this with like the increased, uh, kinda like what you saw with cannabis, the increased age of the people using psychedelics for the first time, right?

For such a long time it was like, this is for college kids and for the youth. And, and maybe that’s still true to a degree, but the fact that we’re now seeing this more, um, literal and figurative maturation of the discourse to me feels like a major [00:09:00] piece of progress. Whether or not it’s directly tied to there being like a pharmaceutical drug product at the end of the line.

So all that to say that like, I think that the, uh, fact that we’re getting more shades, more opportunities, more dynamism in the conversation about drugs and. By extension drug policy, what should we do with the fact that these are mushrooms that grow in the ground in so many places like you? I, I, I like to believe, maybe this is the optimist to me, but I like to believe that the common sense nature of some of these solutions, some of them are not common sense.

They are complex and nuance, but some of them I think actually do and can and will and are breaking through into society in just this very mundane way that allows us to just look at drugs in a way that’s much more part of this larger flow of, you know, these tools that can be dangerous and can be supportive and can have all these risks and all these benefits, like so many other things in life.

So, yeah.

Joe Moore: Right on. Thank you. So there’s a recent, um. Well, with you two joining as [00:10:00] co-executive directors, that’s a huge shift for maps that was kind of led by Rick for so long, and now you two are leading this organization together and it seems like it’s going well, but like what, what are you all learning as co-executive directors and how that’s kind of different from kind of just a single individual leading?

Betty Aldworth: Yeah. Okay. Well,

Ismail Ali: well, Betty’s been a solo executive director and also a co so I feel you should answer this first and then I, like, I can, I can add some observations.

Betty Aldworth: One of the things that we’re learning is really how to read each other and, uh, how should communicate as partners, right. Um, and uh, and in that dynamic, which is really, um, delightful.

And I will say that the intentionality and the care with which we’re approaching this tending between Izzy and I and, and between us and the organization, and the organization and the community is, um. Like, I’m seeing that reflected in my own life, which is really [00:11:00] delightful in my personal relationships and, um, you know, mu more care and intentionality there.

Um, so that’s cool, but not really related to the que or not really answering the question. Um, two things. One is that I think that, um, when we refer to people as solo adss, it is very often not actually true. Um, at S-S-T-P-I had an incredible deputy director, Stacia Kosner, who I think was probably more a co ED than, um, than a deputy director.

And that dynamic in leadership is, um, incredibly important. It’s been so valuable and such a, a shift for me in the experience of leadership that I don’t think I would accept a solo executive director position again. Because it is, um, it allows [00:12:00] for a spaciousness that really lets you, um, do all of the work of an executive director, but without so much of the heaviness that can, that can cause it to become overwhelming.

Right. Um, being an executive director on your own can be a very tough thing. You have to be a fundraiser, a program lead, a strategist, you know, uh, you have to, you know, manage governance. And there’s so many different aspects to the work that having a partner in it, someone who you can really trust, um, has been an absolute revelation and, and so valuable for me.

So I’ve really enjoyed that and I think that it, um, you know, it, it allows us to really have a thought partner. In a profound way when it comes to the big organizational questions that need to be answered. [00:13:00]

Ismail Ali: Yeah. Um, there’s so many pieces, you know, so un unlike Betty, I had not been in an executive director position prior to stepping into this one now, and obviously I’ve been at the organization for quite some time.

I started pretty much straight out of law school in 2016. I actually started volunteering for maps in 2015 while I was still, um, finishing up my grad schooling. And, um, was brought in by Ned Ginsburg who kind of, you know, when we first made contact about 10 years ago, it was like this very, very early stage of some of the conversations that are much more visible today, whether it’s around racial trauma, around looking around p looking at PTSD, beyond kind of the, um, the more normative narratives.

And, um, so on, on one level, just on a personal level, just seeing the growth and transition of the organization from my vantage point over the years has been. Um, fascinating, and, and it’s truly, and I’m sure you know, you’ve both experienced, it’s truly one of those never dull moment kind of situations.

Like, I like this field for, [00:14:00] it’s got a lot of flaws and difficulties and challenges and all the things. And also like it’s, um, you know, in many ways psychedelics are a proxy for so many other things. So it means that we’re constantly dealing with these major questions of ethics and cosmology and these existential.

So like, that’s just been such a fascinating thing to, to follow and to grow into and grow alongside. And, um, you know, my background with Betty is that I, I joined SSDP as the law student a little bit, you know, a little bit older than most of the students who joined when Betty was the excu executive director at the time.

Um, and eventually stepped into the, um, co-chair and then chair of the board role. So it’s interesting that we got a chance to, almost 10 years ago now, be in these sort of like collaborative executive positions, obviously in a very different context, different organization, but with a similar mission and direction.

And then, um. Have had the last five years in our sort of program leadership positions, uh, alongside each other in parallel to develop, just like Betty was saying, this sort of more subtle sense of like, how do we work [00:15:00] together through our own understandings of, you know, what motivates us and what’s important to us.

So I, I just share all that as background because that sort of shaped and I think informed my own interest and desire to be in this kind of co-executive position with Betty. And just to go a little bit more into the, into the weeds of it, you know, the maps as an organization had gone through a number of different phases, over a few different, of, over a few years of like, how does it want as an organization need and want to adapt?

To the changing world, and we can maybe talk a little bit more about that sort of strategic piece in a second. But, um, it just was very clear that to all of us, you know, with the threshold of COVID of course, early 2020, and then everything that’s shifted in the world around us, um, even maps literally had an office in Santa Cruz and then didn’t, we all went fully, like little but significance, stuff like that impacted all these different layers.

So I say all that to say that, um, the, like stepping into this role for the first time myself comes with both all of these new understandings of [00:16:00] responsibility and accountability and um, just, uh, work that needs to be done around, you know, what you were just saying, Betty, around, there’s the fundraiser piece, there’s this strategic piece, there’s the cohesion of the team piece.

Some of that was really new and some of that had really avoided as long as I could, being a subject matter expert, really focusing on the law and this like, you know, front edge of this other topic. Um, and. At the same time, so many of these aspects are familiar, what Betty was just saying about like how it impacts our relationship to each other as professionals who are on this mission at the same time, how it allows us to have more space to understand the fact that we are working with a whole crew of professionals, both within maps and then also within the larger movement that are all have our own motivations, that all have our own angle.

And now we’re all really seeing that if we don’t figure out how to work together, not to be so corny, but it’s so true. We really don’t figure out how to like get not, I don’t wanna say get over it ’cause it’s, but it’s working through some of the things that I think make, um, you know, make, make our [00:17:00] movement less effective than it could be then.

Um, we’re not gonna get to where we wanna go. And so in many ways this work that my least my experience of it is, is it’s a microcosm, it’s like Betty and I get to test out these, like

Joe Moore: yeah,

Ismail Ali: we don’t come from the same worldview, we don’t come from the same background. We get to like test that out with each other and then bring that with that kind of refinement to our team and then the people around us and the movement and.

Betty Aldworth: And then when you throw in Rick to that leadership group, right, he’s still very much in the mix. Uh, when you throw Rick into that, who has such a different background from both Izzy and I, then you end up with, uh, a really interesting dynamic and, and working out that intergenerational, um, uh, you know, uh, there’s just so many ways in which we approach things differently but end up in oftentimes the same, in the same place through our different lenses.

Um, it gets very, um, sometimes a little bit spicy, but always, uh, you know, um, we end up in a place where we feel like we’re [00:18:00] really, uh, moving in the same direction ultimately.

Ismail Ali: Yeah. And actually I’d like to ask one more thing about Rick especially, ’cause you mentioned that mentioned Joe. So, um, just to put a, put a finer point in it.

Rick has, um, so much energy. And he has, he is. So I just want to like, ’cause we get this question a lot and um, he is so still in the mix. Rick is traveling the world, Johnny Acid seed, doing his thing, really talk, talking to um, new audiences, familiar audiences like bringing, ’cause we’re now at a point where like, you know, there there’s plenty of, um, research and innovation that’s still happening and that will continue to happen.

And there has enough, enough has happened that there’s now like a body of knowledge that can be brought to different parts of the world that’s not totally in an experimentation phase, right? Not totally. It’s like we now have enough coalesced information. So, um, to as just adding on to Betty’s point, it’s been this really, really cool pleasure and honor and such a dynamic experience to, um, be in this position of both being mentored by and supported by Rick with his now, you know, 40 years of experience just at maps, you know, [00:19:00] just in this organization, not to mention all the other context.

And then also for, um, him to have so much buy-in and excitement about the fact that. Uh, I think one thing that brings him, I don’t wanna speak for him, but that brings him a lot of pleasure, is that like we are leaders that we’re cultivated by maps. Like we’ve done a lot of work outside of the organization, both of us, and, um, the fact that we’re trying this thing of like, how does it, what does it mean to develop our own leadership, develop our own bench, you know, not just within maps, within the movement.

So, um, it’s been great to like have that place where, where Rick’s got his super strong perspective that we’re always engaging with and also like he really respects us. We, we, he really sees what we’re trying to do and, um, he loves to talk about how it’s really important to him that an organization is really empowered executive directors.

And he, he doesn’t just say that, he’s like, I want you all to be really empowered to deal with the thing that, that you should you think is right, even if he disagrees with us, which happens sometimes.

Joe Moore: That’s great. Does he still have a board seat?

Ismail Ali: Yes. Yeah, because the president, which according to the [00:20:00] bylaws gets, uh, will continue to have a board seat and he also, he has kind of a dual role wit as.

In the board, on the board and then also is still, um, on, on staff driving a lot of the research work for sure.

Joe Moore: Great. Cool. Well that’s fun and like yeah, having that kind of mentor be so closely, you know, um, engaged in your work has to be pretty great and, you know, he’s got so much experience. Yeah. He said 40 years just at maps alone.

Like that’s crazy. Um, you know, what a rare

Ismail Ali: stories on stories. On stories for sure.

Joe Moore: Yeah. I, yeah, you can get sidetracked in Rick’s stories. So, um, I’m trying not to, so I’m kind of curious about, um, misconceptions people have about maps right now that maybe would be cool to clear up for you all. I know like there’s so much legend there wrapped up in maps [00:21:00] that it might, you know, there might be a couple things that could be useful to deflate.

Ismail Ali: Can I start on this one? I’ve got, I’ve got a couple off the top of my head. Um, yeah, this, I love this question. Thank you for presenting it. And, um, what I’ll say to start is that I, there’s a few things that would be worth clarifying and also not to be, you know, super annoying or overly psychedelic about it, but everything is everything in the sense that, um, maps really has done a good job, sorry, of, of, of, um, I would say stating true to our name in many ways, multidisciplinary association.

You’d break down those words, like we actually, um, do have a lot of perspectives and a lot of worldviews that are contained within the organization. Um, and I, I start there because I think one misconception that seems to pervade a lot of the conversations about maps is, um, maybe also riffing on this last question about Rick and his role versus.[00:22:00]

Maps as an association. One thing that Rick has done a really, really spectacular job of over the course of his life and career is surround himself with people who disagree with him. And some people I hear that, I hear people say that about people a lot, but like I’ve really seen it up close with Rick.

He really does not, um, I don’t wanna say he’s like, doesn’t have yes. Men or whatever around him, but like really truly, like I’ve seen more like kind of critical engaged discourse in the work that Rick, Rick has engaged both in the board and his other professionals than many, many other leaders I’ve seen in my life.

And the reason I bring that up is because, um, it, it, that’s, while that’s true, it’s also true that, um, part of what I see as maps and what maps has been created as a container is, uh, both this, um, coal coal coalition of staff that come from all over the country and all of these different worldviews and, um, we were answering this question the other day, like, what is maps?

It feels like it’s hundreds of people and, and it’s like our staff is like 33 or 30 something right now. 30 30. And, [00:23:00] and when people ask that question, I’m like, and we are the hundreds and hundreds of people you think we are. ’cause we are the association. I mean, I’m not saying that, but it’s like, it’s like so many people have learned so much and grown so much and been in that, been in that um, kind of dynamic that this is what I mean by everything is everything.

It’s like we, we are like, it is Rick and his vision and it’s also this group of staff who are more than that. And it’s also this larger movement and vision of people who like see what’s happening and, and are trying to put this energy into creating a more beautiful world that our hearts knew as possible.

Utilizing psychedelics is like one of the tools to get there. So I think that’s one big thing. It’s like we’re also maps the people who have engaged and who’ve committed with time or money or energy or care or education or been that person in their friend group that talks about the thing. You know, like to me all of that is part of this larger container that maps.

So that’s one that like, it’s, it’s more dynamic than I think people sometimes see because of the. Big story. And that’s maybe the second point that I’ll make, which is that a lot of people, you know, especially as a director of policy for a long time and focusing in this work, in this area, um, especially in the policy [00:24:00] world, I think that because the most visible, um, work, the flagship project, you could say, has been around MDMA assisted therapy for PTSD, the medicalization, the work with the FDA and so on, um, that has been a huge part of our work over the last decades and will continue to be.

And also I think that I’m, I’m constantly reminding people that, um, we are actually, um, I don’t wanna say gnostic, but we, we believe in multiple points of access, multiple points of legal regulation, um, multiple ways to get to what we want to get to. So in other words, um, we’re not only pro medicalization anti decriminalization or anti X, y, Z, like we’re actually, I like to think of it as, um, different kinds of, people need different contexts.

So we actually support all kinds of political efforts, both on principle and in practice, like in our day-to-day. Work. So I think it’s really important that people understand that maps, while it’s had this, I don’t wanna say veneer, but there’s certainly like front facing story of the medical access and the importance of that work for some of the reasons we talked about.

Maybe [00:25:00] we can get more into. Um, but that we’re also looking at this like larger mission of responsible access to psychedelics for beneficial use within social and cultural and yes, also medical context and that that’s a much brighter vision than just getting a drug approved through the FDA. So I just wanted to, I think that that feels really important because like we are, and we’re, and I think with this transition with into, into Betty and i’s leadership, I think and maybe can see more to this, I think we’re also.

Recognizing how important it’s to tell these other stories and how to weave them together in a way that doesn’t seem like, oh, one is gonna get the spotlight and take all the air outta the room while the others have to. Just kind of, good luck you guys. Maybe you’ll get something done somewhere. You know, we really wanna be at that level of involvement with other pieces too.

Betty Aldworth: Well, and I think is a, the one thing that I would add to that is another place where we see that reflected is in the three pillars of our work, the elements of our mission. Mm-hmm. Research, educational policy. And yes, research has been, um, getting so much of the attention for such a long time that I, that [00:26:00] people tend to associate maps mostly with research.

But Rick is the first person to say, and Rick, who wrote that mission 40 years ago, is the first person to say that, you know, sometimes you lead with research, sometimes you lead with education and sometimes you lead with policy. And, but they are always interconnected. And one of the things that Izzy and I are really thinking about at maps is how do we use the.

Each of those pillars to really strengthen the others. It’s not so much focused on the pillars themselves, but on the ways in which they interact with each other and what, what is it in that sort of interstitial space between them that we can, um, that we can use to inform our strategies and, and work going forward and use to, um, accelerate perhaps the pace of change so that we get to this world more, this post-prohibition world more quickly.[00:27:00]

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Ismail Ali: Agreed. Yeah.

Joe Moore: So, um, I had a pretty big team for a while and every meeting I would start it with reading the mission, vision and values. It was so annoying, but it was like, we have to like, we have to kind of drill it so that we can live it. And I’m hoping maybe you could share a little bit about like.

You know, mission and vision at least.

Ismail Ali: Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Um, of the organization,

Betty Aldworth: Izzy?

Ismail Ali: Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, I’ll start with the easy part, which is maybe the mission. So the mission has not changed since MAPS has founded 40, 40, 39 years. And 11 and a half months ago, we’ll be, we’ll be at the 40th anniversary in just a couple weeks.

Um, and so I say that to say that like the core mission, which is this idea of, as I just mentioned, you know, creating, [00:28:00] um, legal responsible access to psychedelics for beneficial use in a number of different contexts. That’s always been the case. That will continue to be the case. And kind of, Joe, to your point about like kind of drilling it, what that means to, to me at least, is kind of what I was saying earlier, that we have to take a, a wide lens to, um.

What that looks like and, um, what that could look like. And the thing I’ll add that maybe steps a little bit more into this vision question, and this is something I’ve thought about a lot, a lot over the last few years, is, um, that I think the vision of an organization necessarily needs to adapt to the changing world.

And I think some people might feel otherwise, right? There’s like this goal that you’re setting in the future. You’re setting a flag and you’re like moving toward that. With psychedelics in particular, like I, I feel deeply humbled by the things I’ve learned over the last, you know, decade plus in the field.

And, um, I’m totally on that arc where I feel like the [00:29:00] more I know, the less I know. And the reason I bring that up here is because while our vision does have to do with to, you know, what Betty was mentioning of this post-prohibition world where psych psychedelics can be integrated into medicine, into healthcare, into society, into culture in a way that is.

Safer. That’s more just, that’s more compassionate, that’s more responsible. Um, the how and what that is. And maybe that’s like somewhere in between the mission and vision or downstream from those things that is really changing. Like we can, we can put forward that goal. And also like, because the political environment that we find ourselves in, the things that we’re learning about, the medicines themselves, about the territories, that, and I want to name the, um, increased visibility.

And I think this is a very important thing, increased visibility and awareness in the west of the, the ways that psychedelics have been integrated in utilizing context all over, around the world, all across history. And today is also a big piece of it. And maybe, we’ll the one thing I’ll add, I’ll add to that is that.[00:30:00]

Um, I think that it’s easy to look at the psychedelic field right now, which is really focused on mental healthcare and healing. And, you know, this, this core thing of like making ourselves better, treating or curing whatever that framework is for you. Um, and see that as an immense need. We’re in a society that’s immensely desperate and dealing with major, you know, some people call it a poly crisis, but certainly like on an individual level around isolation, around social media and their phones and the screens and all the things.

So that’s all the atomization that’s happening, and I think that for myself, at least, like even when I started this work 10 years ago, my, my vision or what I thought of B’S vision, what the organization would be, was really still focused on that lens of making sure that we could, uh, help people who are suffering from these specific indications, from these mental health.

Issues. Over the last decade, we’ve seen the more and more relationship between the acute mental health diagnosis and these other things, these social norms, these dare I say, spiritual trends. These relational trends around how we are with each other as humans. [00:31:00] To me that n necessitates, uh, maybe not an expansion, but a, an additional depth of the vision of the organization.

So, for example, um, you know, I’ve been toying with this idea and we’ve been talking internally about this idea of like, what does it mean for psychedelics to be a tool to help enhance our humanity, not just like our humanity, like our compassion to each other, but also our humanity in the face of something that was a specter but wasn’t quite as visible 10 years ago, which is like what’s happening with AI and this digital evolution.

So to me, like the vision of a more beneficial, uh, responsible use of psychedelics, that’s consistent. That’s been the same, the mission’s been the same, but when I think about the, how we craft the vision. And what, what stories we’re telling to inspire people to come along with us. To get there, we have to look at the new set of problems or the new set of dilemmas.

And to me, like, you know, these tools right here, the thing I’m looking at right now, like the way that AI has gotten into everything, and I’m not like [00:32:00] saying we’re, it’s a pro ai, it’s not that at all. It’s like the world is changing. So when we’re thinking about the vision that we want, to me, it’s one that’s more connected to ourselves and to each other.

I’m sure Rick would’ve said that 40 years ago. I’m sure that’s not controversial even in that story, but we have a, we can take a finer point now. We can look at, okay, so how do we bring in these, these, these pillars that Betty was mentioning? What’s the research? What is the education? What is the policy?

How do those things not just get us to drug legalization, which is an important goal because it allows us to create a regulatory system that I think is more, um, sensible in so many ways. But beyond what is the purpose of the legalization or the regulation or the creating access? What are we trying to get there for?

And to me, that’s the thing that’s become more and more visible, which is, oh, we’re trying to do this for each other as, as human to cultivate our humanity in the face of the digital overload, whatever that is. You know? So, I don’t know. That’s a little, that’s a, that was a lot of riffing in a lot of words, but I just like, that’s, that’s kind of how I wanna, I wanna express that it’s been emerging.

Yeah.

Joe Moore: Mm. Yeah. Benny, [00:33:00] anything you want to add about mission that wasn’t really covered mission or vision?

Betty Aldworth: Um, I first off co-sign everything that Izzy just said, right? We, we’ve been having this conversation for a while now around like, what, what are the, what is it that we’re really here to solve? Right?

And, and so I’ll, I’ll, um, and I, I want to say too that like we remain very much committed within all of that. Um, to, you know, the, the opportunity to, for psychedelics to be a tool to help people who are most in need, right? That’s absolutely still a huge part of our focus. So that shows up in, you know, we’re committed to the research for, you know, and like, and we want to make sure that, um, therapists are trained that, you know, all of the things that, and, uh, patients, prospective patients are informed.

All of the things that go [00:34:00] into making sure that people who are, who are in need most urgently of mental health care are able to access it once it comes online. Um, both here in the United States and around the world. Um. It rem it reminds me a bit of medical cannabis versus, um, adult use cannabis. Where, where like, yes, adult use cannabis is important and first we have to make sure people can, he can, um, address their most serious medical issues.

Same with mental health care. So ensuring that we’re continuing to engage with and platform patients and um, and patient groups and loved ones and caregivers. Paying attention to those needs very closely. Um, the therapists and clinicians and, and all of the work that’s happening there, while also recognizing that that is prima fasci step one of ensuring that we can start to build a world where we are more connected to each other and ourselves.

[00:35:00] Mm-hmm.

Ismail Ali: Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Staying ahead of this kind of really crazy digital thing is gonna be interesting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um. Yeah. Some, some comedy I watched the other day. I, I forget who the actors were, but one guy was, you know, my job is making software more addictive, making your phone more addictive. Like, that’s all I do.

I’m like, you know, that’s a real job for a lot of people.

Ismail Ali: Oh, yeah. And they get paid very well.

Betty Aldworth: Very

Joe Moore: well. Mm-hmm.

Ismail Ali: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Yeah. So, you know, thinking about these downstream consequences and, you know, I, I think there’s a world in which if people can heal, they might not want to do that. You know, I made, I, I was, you know, the self-righteous 22-year-old outta college mm-hmm.

Bragging about how I didn’t have to go work for Lockheed to everybody. I’m like, look at me, I can go work not for weapons. Mm-hmm. And somehow that was a flex for like totally the northeast population. I’m like, that’s crazy. But now it’s like, it’s everywhere. Right? It’s, mm-hmm. Um, so [00:36:00] hopefully people can get a little bit more freedom to, to think about what they want to put their energy towards once we heal.

Um, yeah. So next is this, um, kind of the future, right? We have the conference. Let’s talk about that for a minute and then we can go beyond the conference.

Betty Aldworth: Yeah.

Joe Moore: So what’s coming up?

Betty Aldworth: So psychedelic science 2027, we have announced, uh, we’ve sent out save the dates for folks. Um, we will be back in Denver again, um, at the convention center.

Um, and that will be may, I think workshops start May 1st and then

Ismail Ali: first, first for week of May in 2027. Yeah.

Betty Aldworth: Yeah. And then the conference is May 3rd through fifth. Um, and so, um, this is a little bit inside baseball, but one of the things that I’m really excited about that we’re doing this year with the conference is we are, you know, we’ve.

It’s a huge deal. Right? It’s a lot of work to put that thing on. [00:37:00]

Joe Moore: Yeah.

Betty Aldworth: And um, you know, we have a staff of 30, so obviously we weren’t doing that on our own. We can’t do that on our own at any point. Um, but we are this year, um, really paying attention to like, what is it that we’re bringing in partners for?

Um, and what is it that MAPS is holding, um, with people who we’ve worked with over the course of many years and who have, um. Who are, you know, working directly for us to ensure that the elements of the conference that are most impactful for our partners, our collaborators, our audience, our associations, um, are held closest to the work that MAPS is doing.

So we’re, we’re shaping it a little bit differently this year, sort of behind the scenes. And I think the way that that will show up for participants, um, and attendees is, you know, TBD, right? There’s lots of of interesting stuff there that, [00:38:00] um, that will, I think, make it feel more intimate no matter how many people show up.

And I’m really excited about that. Um, we’re also, you know, uh, looking at what are the ways that we advance critical dialogues, you know, through this conference as one vehicle for that? Is it through. You know, mostly panels or is it through something that’s more engaging? Is it through dialogues? How do we, you know, everybody talks about bringing the hallway track, um, into the program.

Mm-hmm. You know, and that’s really something, um, you know, uh, for anybody who’s listening who’s not familiar, the hallway track being the most important and or the most interesting conversations you have are the ones in the hallway outside of the session rooms. Like, it doesn’t have to be that way. We can actually, like, we can have those conversations, um, in a facilitated structure that, like, that [00:39:00] intentionally creates the container for them.

And also there will still be hallway conversations. So we’re, we’re really at the early stages of planning right now with a great team on board. We’ve had, um, a handful of team members return who worked on both 23 and 25. Um, and, um, you know, our, our. Um, we’re really being thoughtful about like how we, how we’re working with the program, um, the cur curatorial process and our community partners to build an amazing container for whatever’s to come in 27 for psychedelics.

Ismail Ali: Yeah, I can maybe, um, say a little more and then segue into some of the other kind of pieces about the future. So Please. Um, one thing that became really clear, uh, at PS 25 was how much, not just obviously how much energy that we as a staff and also like that so many people across the field were putting into this, [00:40:00] to this moment.

Um, and to the, you know. Really awesome possibilities that occur when you have so many different worlds overlap. Like there’s so many amazing psychedelic conferences and gatherings around the world, um, many of which, you know, I, I love and attend and, and have seen incredible conversations happen. But there’s really nothing like having such a big tent, you know, such a big tent at the Colorado conventions that are, you know, for, for the psychedelic science conferences.

And there were conversations that we were really proud to host, um, whether it was through different geographic and ethnic and cosmological and world, just like there were conversations that were having at psychic Science 2025 that I have not seen in other places and, you know, would be really, really difficult to do in other environments.

So that got us to thinking. Why are, why, why is there like this one biannual thing where so much happens and if we’re doing all these other, you know, not smaller gatherings or coalitions, digital or in person or so on, um, how do we create more [00:41:00] continuity between the work that we’re doing in this sort of, you know, crown jewel of, of this, of this process for us?

And also how do we, um, bring more visibility to the gatherings and efforts and the advancements that people are doing in other conferences and other events and, um, just create more connective tissue between those things. So in some ways we’re, we’re sort of, for a long time the way that we treated psychedelic science was as a separate project from all of the other things.

We, of course, there was tons of overlap, um, but even, even in a very like literal sense, like, you know, I’m thinking about when, when I was curating the policy stage in 2023. Even then I remember thinking, okay, it’s really important that we like platform all these amazing people. But I wasn’t really thinking like, how do we, we weave this into maps’ perspective or how do we weave these like big themes that we wanna bring forward to this more mainstream audience.

Like, and it’s funny because I think that we’ve been, you know, speaking to the misconceptions question that you had earlier too, I think that a lot of people believe in the [00:42:00] feedback we get is definitely like, as if we’re pulling the strings and all of the speakers and like, it’s like, it’s really much, much more dynamic than I think it seems.

And we, we put quite a, quite a bit of effort into making sure that there’s people on stage who disagree with us, who have different perspectives. And, but I think we haven’t told that story super well. What people see is like, who gets on stage. And I think giving some of that like more visibility of the background, like both in what are the events that lead up to the insights or breakthroughs that then get put on this stage.

That’s one piece. What, what’s happening for the year and a half between now and then first off, and then, you know, year and couple months now. Um, and then also like how do, to Betty’s point, like. How does the cha, how do changes in format, whether it’s workshops or dialogues or discourse or interviews, or how do those changes actually break the forth wall a little bit and make it less seem like this slate of people who agree with each other, who create this sort of hegemonic worldview, which is, you know, would be impossible, that many people in this many perspectives and more [00:43:00] of like, um, you know, we, we’ve been, we’ve been kind of testing this language, like there’s a visionary Rick, Rick has a visionary, maps is a vision organization, but we’re, we’re moving into this direction of a, a movement of visionaries.

How do we, how do we put a spotlight on this movement of visionaries, of people who are all doing this brilliant work in all these different ways? Maps for a long time had to do all the things because we were early and because now we’ve had this massive, massive, incredible ecosystem that’s been built of people who are better suited than we are, better suited than others to do these things.

Our job now is really, how do we. Be like cosmic switchboard operators and make sure that in addition to pushing the edge with the research and the projects that we’re still gonna be moving forward on, still gonna be kind of pushing the horizon on advancing the horizon on how do we also make sure that we’re like telling the whole story and, um, demonstrating that that’s what we’re doing.

So I think that’s what the conference wants to be. It’s like just taking that other [00:44:00] lens to bring more visibility to that brighter vision. So

Betty Aldworth: can I jump in with one more sort of like, heady thing about this? Um, I’ve been involved in movement work like since before I could walk, right? I’ve been, I’ve been an activist and advocate for a really long time and always frustrated by, um, disempowerment, um, like both in the sense of people feel like they have no power and, uh, systems and stories, um, perpetuate that feeling.

Right. And the, because what I learned very early was that, um, even just by writing letters, uh, to, um, bring more awareness to the apartheid Regi regime in South Africa, right. I got to be part of a movement that changed something. And that was incredibly powerful for me as a young person. I was like 14 or 15.

Right. And that, that [00:45:00] crystallized for me that I can be part of change. So much of our modern world makes people feel so powerless, and part of that is that we sort of gloss over and sugarcoat and, um, the, all of the work. That it takes behind the scenes by thousands of people to make change really happen.

So how do we visualize that in a way that feels empowering to people mm-hmm. And allows them to see that they have a place that they can connect into the movement. Like we all struggle with things like the great man theories and like, you know, this sort of, um, sort of singular simplified vision of how change happens.

Um, it’s not true and it causes people to feel like they have a lot less, um, agency than they do. So how do we, how do we think about that? And this conference that, uh, question fits into it. The co-leadership of Izzy and I fits into it. Mm-hmm. Our storytelling [00:46:00] and like what we want to make sure is, um, broadcast as we celebrate our 40th anniversary, all sort of shows just how many people it takes to make change happen.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Betty Aldworth: I’m really excited to be part of that.

Joe Moore: I particularly love the, um, the element of empowering people to feel like they can make change. And secondly, just telling the psychedelic story, which is such a big story, the drug policy reform story, such bold stories are gigantic together. Mm-hmm. And, you know, taking attempts, like taking stabs and trying to is so important.

You know, I, so I applaud that. So thank you. Um, thank

Ismail Ali: you.

Joe Moore: Massive. We’re having

Ismail Ali: a blast over here.

Joe Moore: Good. Good. Um, so let’s talk about other stuff. So, like, there’s been some interesting stuff at Ohio State with Sarco mm-hmm. Around like law enforcement training. Mm-hmm. [00:47:00] Like, is that, is that gonna be a major project for maps?

Betty Aldworth: Izzy, do

you

Ismail Ali: wanna Yeah, I mean,

Betty Aldworth: close to that.

Ismail Ali: Yeah. Yeah. May maybe I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll start by saying that like each of those kind of pillars that, that Betty mentioned, you’ve got the, the research, the policy and education. We could maybe go into them in different directions, but, um, you know, to this point about really refining, like what’s, what we’ve been thinking about is like, what’s Maps best positioned to do?

Given the resources we have, the connections we have, the network and so on. Um, and what are, what are things that are gonna be done super, super well by other organizations in different groups and, and in a case like this one, so let’s say we’re looking at kind of our larger field of education. You know, Betty mentioned the therapist training, which is going on.

Maybe Betty can speak a little bit more to that specific piece. Over the last few years, you know, we developed this project, um, uh, around training for first responders. And that initially started as a project with the city of Denver, um, and has now expanded. And we’re talking to, I think, I can’t say all of [00:48:00] them right now, but a few different jurisdictions, states, cities, different places that are interested in, um, applying this training to, uh, to their first responder agencies.

And the Ohio State ex example is fantastic because, um. I mean, I don’t know if five years ago maybe, but definitely not 10, would there have been a, an academic institution that would be putting this kind of time, energy, visibility and investment in a program like this. And the Ohio State is particularly interesting because actually have funding from the state.

They’re one of the first academic programs that also has state funding for a number of different things, one of which is kind of developing first responder training. Um, what’s really exciting about this for me is a, like, just being able to work with academic partners on anything like this is awesome.

And, you know, you’re obviously seeing a lot of investment from academic, uh, or from philanthropy into a lot of, sorry, a lot of, um, philanthropy for academic institutions, whether it’s Berkeley or Harvard or so many others across the country that are now building [00:49:00] out these projects of all kinds. Um. So that’s in general, I just wanna acknowledge that that’s quite a big state shift from where we were even a few years ago.

Um, and a sign that kind of legitimate, legitimate institutions of all kinds, um, want to be in this conversation. So that’s a huge kind of progress. And I think it’s really good for the field because I think we actually need, need and have to be outside of this sort of like, bubble of advocates and activists, which I love and I consider myself a part of, but also like some more of this engagement from the quote unquote real world, whether it’s academia, whether it’s state agencies and so on.

So this program with Ohio State is a great example because it’s like, it takes these assets that we developed within maps that are focused on first responder, that readiness for crisis that may be related to psychedelics. And um, I really especially love it because one of the big things that came up with this particular program, or this project or this area was a total chicken and egg thing.

And this is, I don’t wanna get all the way down into the political rabbit hole, but politicians, some of them are super brave and courageous and some of them are not. Some of them are, are willing to. Step ahead and be like, oh, we’re gonna [00:50:00] need this in anticipation of X, Y, z that’s happening. In this case, it’d be, oh, we’re gonna need to prepare our crisis response professionals before we move toward decriminalization or legal access, whatever that looks like.

But in many, many, many cases, it’s the other way around, right? It’s like you’d have to have something that would push, um, the state to realize, oh, this is the problem. Oh, we have to respond to it. So what I really love about what Ohio is doing and the state of Ohio, and also the state of Ohio and also Ohio State University, the partner that we’re working with is that Ohio doesn’t currently have like, like, uh, decriminalization of psychedelics in the way that Colorado, right.

What we see there is this interest from the state and this academic body to preempt the kinds of things that might happen, which to me is like a very, it’s a very strong application of harm reduction. And kind of proactive education. One other thing I wanna add to this that I really, really love [00:51:00] is that I’m sure you know, plenty of people in your audience already know and understand this, but, um, psychedelic crisis and mental health crisis are very, very, very linked.

They’re not the same, but there’s a lot of overlap. And there’s been this larger trend within the United States to move away from armed crisis response and much more toward crisis response that is more informed by, um, the realities of mental health care and the needs related to mental health crisis. So one thing that’s really important here is I think that while on one side of the story, it’s, oh, we have a training that’s unique, that’s new, that is innovative, that’s looking at this dilemma that states could be facing in the future and responding to it.

And also it’s extremely not it’s ex, it’s part of this momentum that’s already been building around what is a more humane and compassionate response to crisis on the street look like. Period, whatever the cause is. Um, there’s lots of downstream questions after that, right? This doesn’t solve all the problems by any means, but we’ve, we’ve noticed is [00:52:00] that it’s allowed more of this openness for, um, first responders of all kinds to just get into this conversation about mental health crisis, not how that impacts their jobs.

And then lastly, how that impacts them and their own mental health. Um, we try not to Trojan horse the whole thing, right? The conversation of mental health for first responders and how they respond to crisis is not the same conversation, but there’s a lot of overlap. So this, it’s, I appreciate you bringing it up ’cause it’s a good example of the kind of project that we’re really focusing on, which is, it’s this innovative asset, it’s this, that, that hadn’t existed before, but we’re not going out being like, we have to be the one delivering and training everybody.

We’re like, no, no. Who are the partners who are motivated to do that? Ohio State University or a, you know, a state body is gonna be better suited to do that in that environment. Than, you know, respectfully me on the west coast in California. But we can create the assets that make that possible. And that partnership, that type of relationship is like a great example of the direction that we’re hoping to go into.

And I think, I don’t know, Betty, if you wanna add more, if I can kick it to you, because I think that the way that we engage [00:53:00] with international partners for therapist training is another great, you know, there, there’s a lot of examples like that I think, um, are just interesting and also demonstrate what we’re trying to do going forward.

Joe Moore: Right? Yeah. Betty, please. I did see some interesting action in, in Poland, but you know, feel free to go where you want to go here.

Betty Aldworth: Yeah. So, um, Izzy mentioned our therapist education program, which is something that I’m, um, becoming increasingly passionate about every day. Um, as part of, um, the work that I’m supporting here at Maps, uh, Rick is, um, Rick is the person who finds our partners and, and, uh, decides where we’re going.

And, um, and I’m supporting the team on, uh, the infrastructure that’s required to make this happen because it is. You know, quite, um, uh, a big bulk of the work. So we find partners in places like Poland, Switzerland, um, Bosnian, Gina, um, uh, Mexico later this [00:54:00] year all over the world, particularly with a focus on places with, um, high incidences of trauma and the fewest resources available to address it.

And we go and train, um, sometimes therapists, but mental health care practitioners in those, um, in those places, um, so that they can become perhaps eventually, uh, clinical investigators. Um, so that they were starting to build a professional education, uh, framework for psychedelic assisted therapies for inter directed healing.

Specifically the model that has been used in all of the maps initiated trials so far. Um. And we are almost always able to bring quite a few, uh, people on scholarship. In fact, last year we conducted a program in the Ukraine, um, that was entirely free to every Ukrainian, every participant, all of whom were Ukrainian.

Um, so we’re able to support people coming from Palestine, from [00:55:00] Lebanon, from all over. And, and of course through our partnership with Maps Israel, you know, um, bringing people together even on, um, opposite sides of, of conflict. Um, bringing folks together to, um, to begin to understand psychedelics and their potential, their promise.

Um. So I, I love this program. It’s so much fun. And one of the great things about it is that we get to do this working with the MDMA alliance, the therapists specifically who, um, have been carrying so much of this work, this work through the years, through the clinical trials, um, training, some training, uh, the other trial therapists.

And, and you know, really, I don’t think that people understand, um, what a risk it is or it was anyway 20 years ago to make the choice to participate in an, to be an investigator in [00:56:00] an MDA assisted therapy trial. And like the risks that these people took to their careers and their reputations, um, it’s not small.

And this is a, a way that we get to continue to honor their work and, and make sure that the people who have been the knowledge carriers for so long, um, are also the people who are engaged in, in the teaching. And to do so in a way that is culturally hum, that embodies cultural humility and is adapted to, uh, the location.

So when I say mental healthcare providers, you know, oftentimes that’s license people with licenses as we’re familiar with in the us, but sometimes it’s not going to be, sometimes it’s going to be people in community who have, who, uh, take on a different type of role that isn’t called therapist or mental health care provider or social worker.

Right. Or psychiatrist. It might be, it might be any number of different roles in different places. So, you know, that’s, that’s a [00:57:00] very, uh, rich project that we are, um, very proud to support at Maps.

Ismail Ali: Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Go ahead.

Ismail Ali: Well, I was, um, I was gonna. N now step into a few of the other program areas if that’s, if that’s a fair direction.

Yeah. Just ’cause I want, I want the, you know, I, to get a, a nice, good picture, but I appreciate the, the prompting and I think this is a good, um, direction. So kind of just riffing off of what Betty was saying, um, both on the risk piece and then also just what I meant. You know, I’m, I’m, I think a lot about the, again, kind of what I was saying at the beginning, these sort of thresholds over the decades and, um, at the time, you know, the, at the beginning of this sort of era of research in particular, the, the horizon, the front edge of that conversation was around drug development.

And can we take these drugs through the FDA process and get them, um, into like, you know, legal pharmaceutical context. And, um, now we’re at this place [00:58:00] where the, you know, there’s an industry that I would say it would stop at nothing to get that approved in some way. You know, there’s a lot of people who are very motivated, um, for a lot of reasons.

So we’ve been thinking a lot, you know, speaking of these projects of like, what are the things that are really needed? What fill the gaps? Um, and you know, these projects that we were just mentioning around the training, professional training I think is a big part of that. And I also just ’cause we all get this question a lot, wanna speak a little bit to the research areas, both the work that re, that Rick has been, um, continuing to move forward and also how that fits this larger arc, um, or this larger story.

So we, we’ve landed on this language because we’ve been thinking a lot about like, what is the research that maps is really needing to do these days? Um, what’s really important? What and, and what is no one else gonna do or what’s no one else doing? So we think a lot about like, well what’s, you know, what are the things that are, I don’t wanna say not commercially viable, but not, don’t have the same incentive within like, the kind of market as, um, as the research that’s happening.

You know, that’s being led by the kind of more well-funded [00:59:00] for-profit drug developers. Um, and, and what are the, what are the things we’re trying to do with it? So we’ve landed on this. Kind of area of what we’re calling precedent, setting research, which can look like a lot of different things. So in the way that the MDMA trials that video was just talking about, that were big risks for the people who were involved in 20 years ago, kind of created this precedent that doing research for drug development for schedule one drugs is not totally crazy.

And if it is, then it’s the kind of crazy they can get us somewhere, you know, that helps us progress as a society and healthcare. So we’re looking at those things that, um, kind of cr really open up new paradigms for research. That’s really the thing that we’re most interested in right now. So on one level, there’s, um.

You know, this work that we’ve been doing with couples therapy, you know, so anyone who knows the history of MDMA knows that before MDMA was made illegal, couples therapy and couples work was one of the big areas in addition to care for PTSD and so on. And there’s kind of like a pithy, funny way to talk about it.

Oh. Like, of course couples with MDMA, it’s a love drive, but there’s that piece of it. But if you go a step deeper, there’s actually some [01:00:00] very interesting precedent that’s sit there because, um, having a tough relationship is not in the DSM five. You know, people have pathologies, couples don’t. So the idea of saying, okay, well what are the ways in which these substances can be applied without necessarily having to rely on this sort of diagnosis based framework?

That’s very interesting. You know, we’ve got, you know, I can get, um, cosmetic surgery, or I can get Botox, or I can get these, uh, procedures without needing a diagnosis. Right. I can, or if I want a therapist, I can just get a therapist. So we’re thinking, you know, the term is elective care. We’re looking at these like ways where psychedelics can.

Stay within this like highly regulated medical environment. Not only there ’cause we also support community care and religious use and all these other things. But insofar as that there is this sort of medical context, what are the ways in which you can get the protection, the oversight and the supervision and the structure of a medical context, um, while also utilizing psychedelics for personal growth or personal development or relational healing or so on.

That to me is a [01:01:00] very fascinating area because it’s, it’s part of this larger kind of western medical framework, but it’s not only reactive to the diagnosis that we’ve been focused on and that we’ve focused over. So that’s one. And then the other I wanna say is looking at populations that are, um, less likely, even if we do get insurance coverage, even if we do get full approval, all the things that we love, um, and that we want.

You know, we’re no strangers to the reality of the inequities as they land in people’s lives. Um, so we’re, we’re been doing for the last couple years is like early stages of research that hopefully we become more kind of substantive research projects, um, clinical projects on working with formerly incarcerated people, population that we know has extremely high levels of trauma.

Check all the boxes that you might see veterans or survivors of assault or so on have experienced, but who from a access to healthcare perspective in the United States are significantly, significantly, um, not just disadvantaged, but I would say actively neglected by the state. Um, so we’re looking at these places [01:02:00] where it’s like, well, how do you get, you utilize this progress and research to not leave people behind and to apply what we learn with these populations that do have good representation within the political sphere like veterans who are, who have really organized incredibly actively and effectively to create access to these medicines, to the, to this, to the.

To the extent that we’re now having a conversation about this at the federal level, not just on the medical side, but on the policy side, which is totally driven by organizing from veterans in the United States. That’s incredible progress and incredible work. And like, we’re like, okay, so who doesn’t necessarily have that political capital?

Who are the people who we really wanna make sure that we can build up a research base that would be taken seriously by, whether it’s academia or other clinicians or so on. So formerly incarcerated people and you know, to Betty’s point, people who are in these conflict zones or zones where they’ve experienced displacement or all kinds of, um, kinda just humanitarian, um, impacts and, and.

We’re not gonna go there and say like, we know how to give MDMA to people in conflict zones, but we can definitely [01:03:00] find the people to partner within in those zones who really have thought about this for a super long time and who are interested in the promise of psychedelics. Not just to like apply our modality A to A, B2B, but really to evolve that in a way.

So these are the, to us, these are the D edges, these are the things that I think, you know, we see maps as being best suited to engage with.

Joe Moore: Yeah.

Ismail Ali: Um, and also the things that we think are most important to be doing right now so that people don’t get left behind. So that whatever this future world, the vision that we were talking about earlier, whatever that becomes, it’s not one that, um, increases disparities in health, which could very easily happen if we’re not paying attention.

Betty Aldworth: Well, we aren’t under the misapprehension that, um, that. Areas or populations with high levels of trauma and, um, insufficient resources to address it is just outside of our borders. There’s a lot of that within our borders too, right? Mm-hmm. People.

Ismail Ali: Right, right, right, right,

Betty Aldworth: right. [01:04:00] So how does that, how do we fit into that, um, framework to be able to, um, like as he says, like we all like to say, make sure no one’s left behind.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So we had a question from YouTube that has popped up there in a distracting fashion, but how can people get involved? This, this person seems to have, um, some access to a, a research department at, um, a university.

Betty Aldworth: Yeah. So, um, one of the things that I would recommend this person does is, uh, go sign up for updates on our therapist training program, um, at maps.org.

Um, just ma ps.org. Um, in order to stay up to date on the training opportunities, but then also can find tons and tons and tons of resources on our website, um, through our now 30 5-year-old bulletin. Um, and, um, the virtual trip, which is all the videos from Psychedelic [01:05:00] Science 25 and 23. Um, so. Like step one, make sure that you’re learning, um, and, and staying on top of the subjects that most interest you.

Um, if you are in a, in a research department, there might be an opportunity for you to be an advocate within that department, um, to begin conducting some amount of, I I don’t recall if it was clinical or, or um, uh, what type of research it is, but, um, you know, there are so many different ways that. I mean, even the social sciences, right.

I’ve been reviewing some of the information on

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Betty Aldworth: Quality adjusted life years, right? So like the economic sciences and, you know, social sciences and all the rest. Um, uh, there are ways to get involved, um, as a researcher or as, um, you know, as an academic, um, that, uh, might become evident once you start, um, reading about what’s happening.

[01:06:00] Right. Um, so I think that there’s, uh, there are lots of ways to answer that question. One way that I like to recommend is, you know, a lot of the, the, um, a lot of the visible work happens at like high levels in academia, um, at, you know, in Washington DC and, you know, in the, in national meet, like so much of it feels so disconnected from our lives.

But a lot of the wor the work that is so visible happens up here, but the real work happens in community. Right. So I always like to recommend that folks get involved with their local dance Safe chapter or their local Zendo chapter, uh, their local, um, global Psych Psychedelic Society. And, um, you know, with our partners, um, in, at all of these organizations, they might find an opportunity to connect with people who are in their own community trying to make change.

Because that is how things [01:07:00] like the Denver and the Colorado, that’s how, um, that’s how change starts at the local and state level. But it’s also, those are the people who you’ll will be counting on, um, as you are on your journey as an advocate.

Joe Moore: Yeah.

Ismail Ali: Yeah. I can

Joe Moore: please.

Ismail Ali: Sorry. Go for it.

Joe Moore: You’re up.

Ismail Ali: Um, yeah, I, I, uh, I agree with everything Betty said and you know, one thing that I’ve, um.

I appreciate it. I’ve spent a lot of time working with, uh, lawyers over the last years, um, and legal professionals who are interested in getting involved and like many other areas of our, of our field. Um, there’s so much to do. Not enough funding, like not enough connection. It’s like it’s, it’s one of those things where the interest outpaces the capacity of the field.

And one thing that I’ve just general trend I’ve noticed is over last few [01:08:00] years, I think that the carrying capacity of the psychedelic movement is starting to right size. Like the water levels are starting to go align. And there was this real, we were in a really big hype cycle for, for a minute there. Um, and maybe still are to an extent, but I bring all that up to say that like, one thing that I’ve noticed over the last decade that’s been very useful is, um.

The, um, experience that you commenter or really anyone is developing in their own field, in their own world is extremely useful. A lot of people think, especially when they’re engaging with psychedelics, that they need to like, pivot into working with psychedelics or, I see, you know, I see business owners all the time who have an experience.

They’re like, I’m gonna set up business about psychedelics or what. And it’s like, you know, no shit. People can do whatever they wanna do. And also like, we need people everywhere. We need people in, we need people in the department, in the research departments that aren’t talking about psychedelics too. We need people in real estate.

We need people in industry. We, so I say like, I think that like [01:09:00] if, if, if we’re all, if people are having psychedelic experiences or benefiting from their journeys, um, and all putting that energy into developing more psychedelic stuff. Then I think that we might only be getting part of the story. I think that what we actually wanna see is for our psychedelic experiences and journeys and growth to impact every sector.

So I’m not trying to diminish someone’s excitement about working with psychedelics. You should totally do that. And I think what Betty said, advocating within the department, figuring out who at your university or adjacent, and maybe, I think that’s a great point, Betty, looking in the social sciences, looking in these other areas.

’cause people tend to look in the clinical research worlds. Um, and not every school or not every place has that within their departments. Um, but we’re now in a place where, you know, sometimes it’s literature, some this philosophy, you’re seeing this conversation about psychedelics show up in all these places.

And I think that’s actually what we need more of, which is like, how are the. Without putting a moral weight on it, but like, how are the ways [01:10:00] that they’re helping us heal or come into contact with ourselves or develop other relationships with our partners or our friends or our parents or what our, our inner children, whatever that is.

Like, how do those things actually allow us to show, not tell about what we’re trying to do to make the world a better place? This is less like the call to action, like go call your representatives. Uh, I see this person’s in the state of Washington. Um, if you haven’t already, there are groups in Washington that are working on policy access there that are worth engaging with, but what, even if there isn’t that in whatever state, any listeners in whatever place, if someone isn’t, um, this sort of, uh, it’s sort of like a humble advocacy.

It’s less like I’m gonna go out into the rooftops and say, Hey, everyone should do psychedelics. I don’t believe that, first off, but, and, and, and more like, what is it doing for you and how do the people around you. See that that’s happening. How, how are you a model for what world we’re trying to create in your own self?

It’s a little more of like a personal thing than, you know, Betty, where you’re saying, which I think is a little, a lot more practical from an activist standpoint, but [01:11:00] I feel like it’s important to name that.

Joe Moore: I love that. Yeah. Um, what is it? Uh, y’all have a catchphrase be the portal, something like that.

Ismail Ali: Oh man, there’s a few different ones.

Joe Moore: Be the bridge. Yeah,

Ismail Ali: be the bridge. But, but, but there’s also see past the paradox, which is another good one. Mm-hmm. Which is like, but it’s about you, but it’s about us all, but it’s about you, you know?

It’s like, it’s, there’s a lot of ways to could interpret it.

Joe Moore: That’s great. Um, well, cool. Anything we want to leave, um, listeners, viewers with?

Betty Aldworth: Well, um, as we’ve sort of, glancingly mentioned a handful of times, we’re about to celebrate our 40th mm-hmm. Anniversary, so I hope that folks are following us on social or are on our, um, email list so that you can see some of the cool stuff that’s happening there.

We are gonna have specialized merch drops and, um, different ways that people can get involved in that [01:12:00] celebration, um, uh, beginning in a couple of weeks here and, uh, we’re very excited about it. Um, I’d also like to put a plug in that, uh, Izzy and I will both be speaking at psychedelic culture along with Rick, uh, the three of us on stage together.

Um, so that is in San Francisco, I think the 17th, 18th, 19th of great

Joe Moore: memory. Mm-hmm.

Betty Aldworth: So if you can make it to that, um, you know, we would love to see you there. Um, that’ll be the first time that we’ve been on stage together in quite some time, so, mm-hmm. Really excited about that. Um, and, uh, yeah, lots to come around that 40th anniversary.

And of course psychedelic science 2027, um, you know, save that date if you haven’t already. That’s May 3rd through fifth, um, of 2027 in Denver, or,

Ismail Ali: yeah. Maybe the last thing I’ll add is, um, it’s a little bit more of a riff on what I, you know, what I was just saying in this question of like, how to [01:13:00] get involved and what it, what we’re doing and what, what is maximal, what are we gonna become, what are we trying to be?

And just to kind of like bring all of this threads together in this conversation. Um, I just wanna highlight Betty, what you said earlier around, like in some ways what we’re trying to do as co-executive directors is just model what we think we should all be seeing more of. Um, not that we like know everything, and in fact, specifically acknowledging that no one person knows all the things, and that as we’re looking at this next phase of the movement, whether you count it from the beginning of maps, the next 40 years, or, um, the post FDA, whatever, like however you wanna characterize it, you know, as a person who’s in the field, um, that this shift toward empowering us as individuals and recognizing that we do have power, both as ourselves and also in.

Coalition and community. Um, it’s not just like window dressing. It’s not just like words that feel good. It’s actually like if we zoom out and look at the movement over the last, you know, decades, um, [01:14:00] it’s actually how things have happened. And like, even if you come back to like the way that Rick has worked within maps, like so much of his work, yes, it’s about the research.

Yes, it’s about what we made possible because of the evidence based on the data, but it’s also about the relationships that he’s built. And part of the reason that we’re in the position that we’re in now is because the relationships that we’ve built, um, both the strength of our relationship with each other as leaders, but also with the people who’ve we’ve built trust with and ruptured with and had to repair with and are still working through things with.

You know, so I, I guess I say that to say that like the, the, the thing that I I implore us all within the field to just be tracking is, um, the willingness to show the vulnerability and show the honesty of like, the humility of like us trying to figure this out together. I’m at this point in my career that now, especially with this negative feel, if someone shows up.

Sounding really sure of themselves. I’m really suspicious. ’cause we really don’t know. And that’s okay. And that’s okay. And like that’s part of why, maybe just in closing I’ll say myself, like I am deeply [01:15:00] honored and grateful that we’re seeing more indigenous leaders, leaders from traditional practices who have every reason to be like, why would we deal with this Western catch?

Which like, why? Like there’s so much over there. Like let them figure that out on their own. And yet we’re seeing leaders from all over the world, within the United States, native American leaders, as well as from South America, from Central America, from Africa, from these places who are showing up and being part of this conversation because we’re all connected.

I’m saying that sort of tongue in cheek, but it’s true. It’s like what we do here in the United States deeply, deeply impacts people around the world. We focus so much on drug policy, on, you know, I’m kind of a broken record about this. We focus so much on drug policy, on like this sort of consumer centric, what is it like for us as Americans who are taking these substances?

I really, really wanna implore us, and this is a lot of what we’re trying to do at maps, take a bigger picture, understand that these are connections that we’re making, whether or that exists, whether we like it or not, to people in other parts of the world that are impacted by our drug policy, they’re impacted by our foreign policy, they’re impacted by what’s going on [01:16:00] here.

So I just, I guess it’s, it’s really just a call for responsibility and a call for, um, like our own responsibility as maps and an invitation for people to, to witness that and to, to keep pushing us. Like keep critiquing us, keep pushing us to be the best that we can be because we’re, we’re doing our best and we’re gonna keep doing our best.

And, um, we’re grateful to be in the position we’re in. We’re deeply honored to be in the positions of leadership that we’re in and don’t take it for granted. Um, and we’re, I don’t know how to speak for both of us, but I think we’re really excited to cross paths with you in person somewhere somehow. And I’ll just, maybe I’ll leave it at that for now.

Betty Aldworth: I’m like tearing up a little bit. So yeah, you’re both of us.

Joe Moore: No, it’s, it’s such a big project and thank you all for holding it so well and I hope people go to see you in San Francisco in a few weeks at the Psychedelic Culture Conference. I’ll miss it this year. Izzy, last year was a highlight, sharing the stage with you, so that was

Ismail Ali: great.

Joe Moore: That was great. That was great. That was a good one. Spicy times. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ismail Ali: Spicy

Joe Moore: times. [01:17:00] I guess it’s still the same. Anyway, thank you both. Everybody check out maps. I hope everybody will be going to that conference next summer. I’ll be there for sure. And um, yeah, thank you again.

Betty Aldworth: Thanks so much.