Business
Joe Moore Psychedelics Today on Leadership, Integration, and the Psychedelic Landscape
March 9, 2026
Jen Davenport joins Psychedelics Today to interview the CEO and co-founder Joe Moore about the growth of Psychedelics Today, the broader psychedelic ecosystem, and how professionals are beginning to engage with psychedelic ideas.
Jen Davenport joins Psychedelics Today to interview the CEO and co-founder Joe Moore about the growth of Psychedelics Today, the broader psychedelic ecosystem, and how professionals are beginning to engage with psychedelic ideas.
Davenport is the founder of Iron Thread Partners and a graduate of the Vital psychedelic training program. Her work focuses on executive leadership, decision making, and organizational development. In this conversation she asks Moore about the evolution of Psychedelics Today and the changes he has witnessed across the psychedelic field over the past decade.
Moore explains that Psychedelics Today began as a podcast exploring psychedelic research, therapy, and culture. Over time the project expanded into a media and education platform covering psychedelic science, harm reduction, and professional training. The organization now produces podcasts, journalism, courses, and public conversations about psychedelics and their place in modern society.
A central part of the discussion is psychedelic integration. Moore notes that insight during a psychedelic experience does not automatically lead to lasting change. The integration process often requires continued work through journaling, meditation, therapy, and community support. These practices help people translate insights into stable changes in behavior and perspective.
The conversation also explores policy changes in the United States. Colorado’s Natural Medicine framework is creating a regulated system for psychedelic services while the state also maintains a broader decriminalization approach. Moore discusses the tension between regulated access and grassroots psychedelic culture, as well as the questions around accessibility, pricing, and corporate participation.
Davenport asks how executives and professionals are approaching psychedelics. In some circles psychedelics are framed as tools for creativity or performance. Moore cautions against this framing. Psychedelics often open difficult personal material and should be approached with care rather than treated as productivity tools.
Education remains a recurring theme throughout the episode. As public interest grows, Moore stresses the importance of studying the legal landscape, understanding the scientific literature, and developing responsible practices for preparation and integration.
The conversation offers a grounded look at how Psychedelics Today approaches the psychedelic resurgence. Rather than focusing on hype, Joe Moore emphasizes education, safety, and thoughtful engagement with psychedelic experiences.
Key Topics
- The origins and growth of Psychedelics Today
- Joe Moore’s perspective on the psychedelic resurgence
- Psychedelic integration and long-term personal change
- Leadership and professional interest in psychedelics
- Colorado’s developing psychedelic policy framework
- Responsible education and harm reduction
FAQ
Who is Jen Davenport?
Jen Davenport is the founder of Iron Thread Partners, a consulting firm that works with executives and organizations on leadership development and complex decision making.
What is psychedelic integration?
Psychedelic integration refers to the process of reflecting on and applying insights from psychedelic experiences in everyday life through practices like therapy, journaling, and meditation.
What role does Psychedelics Today play in the psychedelic field?
Psychedelics Today produces media, educational programs, and public conversations that explore psychedelic science, therapy, and policy developments.
Transcript
Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back. Another episode of Psychedelics Today. Today we’re live streaming. Um, good. Jen Davenport today. Jen, how you doing?
Jen Davenport: Doing well, Joe. How are you
Joe Moore: doing? All right. Beautiful day here. Sunny in Colorado. Excited about it.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, me too. It’s sunny and warm here in Atlanta, Georgia as well.
Jen Davenport: Spring has sprung.
Joe Moore: Oh, we’re getting some echo. Can you turn your volume down a bunch or put it into ear?
Jen Davenport: Yep, yep. Gimme one sec. And I’ll
Joe Moore: put on
Jen Davenport: some headphones. How about that?
Joe Moore: Great. So everybody, we’re here today. We’re kind of flipping the script a little bit. Jen’s gonna interview me, um, about psychedelics today, about what I’ve been up to or coming from where we’re going, all that kind of fun stuff.
Joe Moore: So [00:01:00] really excited about it. And, um, we’ll get to talk a little bit about Jen’s background, um, business life and intersection with psychedelia. And, um, yeah. So Jen, where, where are you joining us from today?
Jen Davenport: Hey, I’m adjoining you from Atlanta, Georgia.
Joe Moore: Brilliant. And it’s already 80 degrees you said?
Jen Davenport: It is. It is warming up here in Georgia already.
Jen Davenport: I’m, I’m excited about spring.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So, all right. Um. And I think people know enough about me, we can skip this part, but let’s talk about you a little bit. Where, where, um, did the psychedelic topic first come on your radar and what’s, what’s like exciting you about it?
Jen Davenport: Yeah, so I’ve spent in the majority of my career in corporate Joe and have recently founded a new company, iron Thread [00:02:00] Partners, where I focus with executives and leadership teams on solving for really high stakes.
Jen Davenport: Outcomes, strategic outcomes. Um, and I, I’ve always realized in corporate culture, you are who you are wherever you go. So you’re bringing not just your corporate identity, but all of your wounding, all of your trauma, all of the things that create emotional dysregulation or impact, um, depression, anxiety, all of those things.
Jen Davenport: And so I’ve started to think about it and explore how can psychedelics help people in the realm of human performance, how to show up better and differently in corporate environments.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, amazing. So. I assume you’ve done a little bit of training over here. Can you, can you talk about what kind of programs you’ve done over here
Jen Davenport: at P?
Jen Davenport: [00:03:00] Absolutely. Yep. So I was in cohort four of the vital training that’s presented by psychedelics today. Um, I’ve worked with psychedelic informed therapists, um, and I have a, a degree, a graduate degree in psychology, industrial and organizational psychology. So that’s where I see this, this intersection of something that might typically be thought of in the spiritual realm, um, or the, the, uh, the experiential realm that could really show up and, and have some positive, uh, impacts in the corporate culture as well.
Joe Moore: Outstanding. Yeah. Um, vitals. Really fun. I’m glad you were able to join us for that whole thing. Was it, was it worth your time?
Jen Davenport: Oh my goodness. Absolutely. It was amazing. It was amazing. I learned so much, um, so much about the history of psychedelics. Um, even the, the political angle [00:04:00] about why psychedelics that kind of went, had to go underground back in the sixties.
Jen Davenport: Um, and just what the amazing impacts of psychedelics can be around those topics of emotional regulation, healing from trauma, PTSD, depression, um, you know, we’re, we’re looking at a multi-billion dollar industry where some of these indigenous medicines could come back into the scene and really have a huge impact in people’s lives.
Joe Moore: Yeah, amazing. I agree. So, um, we’re chatting, before we dig into you interviewing me, we kinda wanna chat about like, what, what. Is there, is there an appropriate place in the business and corporate world for psychedelics in your perspective? We’ve seen, you know, a lot of inclusion of mindfulness and, um, meditation, things along those lines.
Joe Moore: Like I used to be at a place where we get to do yoga often and free reiki, stuff like [00:05:00] that. So like, what, what do you think, is it an appropriate thing to have?
Jen Davenport: Yeah, I, Joe I really do believe that it’s time to start having the conversation more openly. Um, you know, particularly in forward leaning industries.
Jen Davenport: Um. Technology for sure. I mean, it’s already talked about quite a bit in technology, but outside the boardroom, right? Um, marketing more of the creative, uh, creative fields. Yes, absolutely. I think, um. You know, the research is leaning to all of the benefits around how, um, psychedelics can help in ways that increase cognition, um, increase emotional regulation.
Jen Davenport: All of those things are gonna feed into better decision making within organizations. So yes, I think that there’s certainly a place for the discussion, but it’s, uh, you know, if I think about it and compare [00:06:00] it to something like ai, everybody’s talking about AI right now. I think there are a lot of people talking about psychedelics, but it’s still a bit of a taboo subject.
Jen Davenport: But they’re both extremely powerful technologies. Both of them require thoughtful discussion, governance, um, discussion around what problem are you really trying to solve with this technology? So the answer is yes, with a, a high degree of thoughtfulness.
Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah, I think it’s, it’s fascinating, right? Like of, of course we need a, um, a more enlightened humanity so we can start making a lot better decisions for people on planet.
Joe Moore: Um, and a lot of the frameworks we have to operate in absolutely. Like, for instance, publicly traded corporations, like at, you know, ethics is a secondary tertiary consideration, right? Like profit is you, you’re legally bound, at least in American corporations, publicly traded corporations [00:07:00] for profit being the primary thing.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And, um, it’s a complicated deal and I, I, I would hope psychedelics would shift that thinking a bit.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, absolutely. Like, I, I think that, um, we live in a time where returning a little more humanity across the board to corporate culture could only be a good thing.
Joe Moore: Right. Yeah. Um, and you, you are of the belief that you think we can shift it a bit?
Jen Davenport: I believe we can. You know, when I, I have a lot of discussions with leaders in my business. You know, we’re, we’re talking about really big, impactful decisions that they make that could impact sometimes thousands of people, right? And so from what I know about psychedelics, they’re, they’re framed as tools that can increase empathy and perspective and judgment.
Jen Davenport: So I do, there’s, I do think that there’s [00:08:00] a place for, for how psychedelics, the use of psychedelics can, um, can impact decision making capability, can impact human performance in a way that doesn’t cause us to shortcut humanity.
Joe Moore: Right. Um. Absolutely. So, you know, that’s what I’m trying to do. It’s what I’ve always tried to do here at psychedelics today is be, what is that next gen business that seems to make sense for the planet, um, and is a net benefit.
Joe Moore: And, you know, helps us hang around for a few more generations.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I do think there’s a risk, right, of, of people approaching psychedelics with the wrong intention, right? So, um, a lot of times people could think, Hey, it’s a shortcut to genius, or it’s a creativity hack or a leadership upgrade.
Jen Davenport: And I think that it really, if we start [00:09:00] looking at it like we look at any other corporate tool in the marketplace, we can lose sight of what the real benefit is. And that’s really taken it back to the individual. Evolution of, of a person, right? So, you know, all of the, all of the ills that we see in corporations and um, in society at large come down to a single person who’s overstepped in terms of a lust for power, for greed, for, for all the things, right?
Jen Davenport: So finding ways to bring, to bring us all back to ourselves and to reconnect to ourselves can only make everything else that we do and touch better,
Joe Moore: right? So, um, yeah. Anything else here before we pivot?
Jen Davenport: I think we should go for it. Alright,
Joe Moore: let’s jump in. Where do you wanna start?
Jen Davenport: Well, you’ve [00:10:00] had a front row seat, Joe, to everything that’s happening in the psychedelic scene for, for many years.
Jen Davenport: And so I, I’m really interested in hearing about what do you think has changed the most in the last five to 10 years? Is it research? Is it culture? Um, is the topic of psychedelics becoming more ca mainstream? Is it around capital? Like where do you see things changing the most?
Joe Moore: Oh gosh. Well, it’s happening everywhere.
Joe Moore: Um, I think the starting point is public opinion and attitudes and how are we moving those? And a lot of other things follow, right? So we have. Um, more and more celebrities talking about this stuff all the time. Even politicians talking about this stuff all the time. Not necessarily always, uh, the, the right way, quote unquote, you know, as if that is a real thing.
Joe Moore: Um, but it [00:11:00] depends on what our, what our goals are and how we want to talk about this stuff. Um, so I think public attitudes are shifting and they’re shifting in a, in a major way. And the RAND report that came out recently, um, indicated that American attitudes are shifting like crazy. People are using more now than ever.
Joe Moore: Um, and that, I think it was a substantial amount of the American public said that the federal government should legalize psilocybin containing mushrooms.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, I got to give Forbes a bunch of really great commentary about it the other day, which is lovely to see. They included me quite a bit. I was really stoked on that.
Joe Moore: And I think, you know, we’re seeing actual work being done at the federal level. And the state level for that matter, trying to figure out what is the right thing to do. Um, government workers have all sorts of restrictions on them, so they’re doing their best. They’re trying
Jen Davenport: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: To figure it out. But it’s a really hard thing given a trillion dollar war on drugs and [00:12:00]
Jen Davenport: Yeah.
Joe Moore: You know, and how do we make it medical now? I don’t, I don’t, I don’t have a clear answer for what the path is from A to B.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. You know, it’s really interesting. I, I, I think that we, we do kind of have, um, competing agendas within the government right now where, you know, there’s this war on drugs, but there’s all this really promising research about what these drugs that are currently class one drugs can do for people.
Jen Davenport: And it, it’s also in contrast, I think, with big pharma and all of that lobby. So do you think that the, the, what feels like kind of this, this underground surge of excitement, do you think it’s sustainable or, or are we in a hype cycle right now?
Joe Moore: We’re at a low, no, we’re not anywhere close to like the peak of a hype cycle right now.
Joe Moore: So, um, maybe four years ago was real, real fever pitch. Could have even been longer ago. [00:13:00] Um, you look at the, there’s some, uh, stock trackers, um, that actually made like a sort of index of all the public companies. And, um, you could see like there was a period of time where everything just had a crazy, crazy valuation.
Joe Moore: And, um, that to me was peak hype. Like I think the level right now seems very sustainable. Um, it seems, you know, grassroots enough people aren’t spending an obscene amount of money trying to, um, promote it. Um, you know, I’m. Spending time and quite a bit of effort doing that, but, you know, that’s me. Um, but yeah.
Joe Moore: How do we, um, how do we see it playing out? Is it sustainable? I, I can’t see it going anywhere. Like there’s so much like really [00:14:00] great traction we’re seeing from individuals having a lot of healing to
Jen Davenport: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Communities, ex expressing that they’ve had a lot of healing. Um, states like Colorado seems to really like this program that we have going on.
Joe Moore: When regulated Access, Oregon seems relatively satisfied with their program. Uh, new Mexico’s got theirs coming. Um, Texas recently put in 10 million to their iboga research program.
Jen Davenport: Nice.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Of 50, 50 million. Yeah. And then, um, other states are putting in cash as well, so there’s a lot of really interesting activity Yes.
Joe Moore: Um, happening. And it, to me, it feels like we’re just getting started.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, that’s really exciting, Joe. And, and honestly, I think the more that we see governments putting, putting attention to the topic and putting money where their, where their mouth is, we’re gonna see a shift more into the corporate [00:15:00] conversation, more into how these, these topics of wellness do translate into increased human potential, increased human performance.
Jen Davenport: So I think if we can keep the momentum going, this is gonna be a topic that really gains momentum, you know? Where are you most surprised about, um, what’s happened in the last five years with psychedelics?
Joe Moore: Um,
Joe Moore: yeah, that’s a good question. I think it is just how. Active the United States government is in this, you know, I didn’t expect them. Like it’s still very subpar activity, but it’s still, you know, movement and signals that there is change and people taking this very seriously at the, you know, highest levels of the government.
Joe Moore: And [00:16:00] we’re, we’re seeing it, you know, psychedelic medicine coalitions worked with, uh, Bergman and Carrera to move this really interesting VA innovative therapies project forward where they might have five different centers of excellence at the VA where they can do these treatments and execute on really high level research.
Joe Moore: Um, veterans are demanding this access and it seems like we’re getting met with some interest. Yeah. So like I really, really like that and I’m excited by that. I think, you know, could always do better, could always see more sooner, but you know, we have to accept that there is a certain pace and there’s a certain level of energy that’s required.
Joe Moore: Um. To bring these things forward.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it, it’s, pace is always an interesting question, especially coming from a corporate background. Right. I, I’ve done some work in the public sector and the thing that I’ve noticed most working in the public sector is the pace is. [00:17:00] Painstakingly slower than what I’m accustomed to, especially coming from a, a startup culture.
Jen Davenport: Um, and, you know, high demand, high impact corporate culture. And, and so it feels like we’re really in this interesting moment where there’s a lot of research happening culturally, curiosity is, is, is peaked. People are demanding this, but the legal framework is still catching up. So, so, so what do you think about responsible engagement given where we are with that?
Jen Davenport: I mean, you’ve talked about some of the decriminalization activity that’s going on, but, um, you know, where do you, where do you see that shaping up?
Joe Moore: So.
Joe Moore: Responsible engagement is such a funny phrase. Right. And I, I have a similar background, right? I had 20 years in mm-hmm. Software and it was crazy.
Jen Davenport: Right? Yeah. I
Joe Moore: remember talking about that.
Jen Davenport: [00:18:00] Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um,
Jen Davenport: let’s, let’s move at the speed of light or, or you’re behind, right?
Joe Moore: Right. And, you know, talk about a, a dangerous situation to keep your mind and body in for decades, Uhhuh.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So is that responsible engagement? Probably not, but what is the right engagement level? So,
Jen Davenport: right. You know,
Joe Moore: I think making sure your politicians know what you believe in and what you stand for. And then if you have a. Municipal county or state framework, perhaps there’s legislation that you can work on in those regions that decreases penalties for people or eliminates penalties for people who are, who are in these spaces.
Joe Moore: And you know, as you probably know Jen, like I expand that to the whole war on drugs because I think that’s been one of the biggest catastrophes America has seen. Um, you know, unless we really value keeping lots of people in jail for nonviolent things.
Jen Davenport: Absolutely.
Joe Moore: [00:19:00] So yeah, we need to really kind of, um, say what is, what is the right pace?
Joe Moore: It’s not, you’ve had, you know, a week of ayahuasca experiences and then you rush to your state capitol and start talking to all your lawmakers like the next day. Like, I don’t know that that’s the right move. I think yeah, taking stock and observing your situation is, is a much better move. Um, taking time.
Joe Moore: To make sure you’re executing on the right things in the right way because you’re not spending your social capital in inappropriate, perhaps wasteful ways.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, I think that’s a really, really great point, Joe. You know, uh, I, we, we talk about, you know, people coming back from these really powerful, psychedelic experiences, um, and, you know, obviously everyone wants to come back and, and make lasting change, not only for [00:20:00] themselves, but to invite other people into the conversation.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm. But you’re right, it takes a little bit of time to, to regulate from, uh, an experience like that. I mean, powerful experiences are amazing, but mm-hmm. It’s all about what are you trying to solve for in the internal landscape there? And insight alone doesn’t necessarily lead to lasting change in a person’s life.
Jen Davenport: So certainly premature to line up, you know, in front of our legislators, um, office and start having conversations. I’m curious, like what do you think really helps people to translate these experiences and these insights first into behavioral shifts in their own lives, and then, you know, kind of what’s the process there to, to, um, build momentum within their, their personal life, their professional life, and then to start to, to, to partake in [00:21:00] some of these grassroots initiatives?
Joe Moore: Right? I think a huge portion of this is how do we move things without creating too much instability in our lives? Our relationships and, um, often we’re like, okay, the insight is quit my job, get, get that divorce immediately. It’s like, well, should you, would you, or like, have you tried couples therapy yet?
Joe Moore: Is that appropriate thing to start with? So there’s a lot of, um, energy after. So I think to get those insights, we, we really want to kind of take our time and, you know, sure. If it’s something like maybe I should drink less or maybe I should eat less McDonald’s or, sure. Like, let’s do that right away. But if it’s a major thing that could introduce tons of instability, perhaps [00:22:00] let’s not do that immediately.
Joe Moore: Let’s really analyze the situation, right? Get feedback from people that can be useful if you have that resource and then figure out where to go next. Um, carefully.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, I, I agree. I, um, I remember, you know, just being part of the, of the, of cohort four, there was a lot of discussion about why you guys decided to launch the training, and a lot of it is about harm reduction because, um, so many people are starting to enter the discussion around the use of psychedelics and, um, harm reduction doesn’t just stop during the experience itself.
Jen Davenport: It continues on with, with how, what do people do after they come out of those experiences? How do they continue to get support? And I’m, I’m curious, you know, what do you think about where people struggle the most [00:23:00] after some of these really big experiences with psychedelics?
Joe Moore: The. Beyond kind of making these big decisions, like I, you know, divorce or quitting your job.
Joe Moore: Like, I think sometimes the worldview that you come back with can be really scary and, and dysregulating. ’cause you had this experience that’s far from normal. Um, and you’re, you’re kind of expected to carry on with life as normal when, you know, you now have a very different view of reality. And, you know, that can be from entity encounters, it can be from experiencing who you are in very different ways.
Joe Moore: It can be from so many things like, oh, I actually disagree with this dogma from church. And what do I do now that I’m not, you know, I have a couple questions. You know, a lot, there’s a lot of [00:24:00] possible things, this concept called ontological shock. Yes. And it’s like now we’re questioning the fundamental baseline of reality and we have to really spend substantial time settling into these new experiences being part of our world.
Joe Moore: And I think that’s a major component of integration, is spending enough time with these new insights and experiences so that, um,
Joe Moore: yeah, we can, we can integrate those and make them part of our life and, and learn from them and not be ignoring them.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. You know, uh, uh, a lot of the things that I would typically teach people when I am coming into a corporate consulting engagement or, or, uh, um, a coaching engagement where people are really looking to slow their nervous system down to really look at some embedded patterns and behaviors [00:25:00] that may need a shift.
Jen Davenport: Um, I’ll talk a lot about mindfulness and meditation, creating a journaling practice. And so these sorts of things are, are really mainstream in the human performance, um, and the human performance discussions that happen today. Um, we don’t talk a lot about, um. Big, powerful spiritual experiences, although it is coming up more and more frequently, especially in some of the one-on-one discussions that I have in coaching engagements.
Jen Davenport: And so, you know, what, what does good integration actually look like in daily practice from, from your perspective?
Joe Moore: It should be different for everybody. Um, but, you know, some, some categoricals is, are you drinking enough water? Are you eating properly? Are you trying to work on sleeping enough and better?
Joe Moore: You know, those are some good ones. [00:26:00] Are you taking moments to check in with yourself about how you’re processing the experience? Um, I think that’s a big one. Um, I’m sure there’s other categoricals, you know, I would love to see people meditating more. Yeah. You know. 10 minutes of mindfulness or mantra meditation, you know, whatever it is.
Joe Moore: Uh, to start. I think that would be really great exercise. Are you moving your, your vehicle Are, you’re taking care of your body? You know, I, um, I’ve had this problem where instead of taking care of medical things, I just get to work. ’cause I don’t have enough time to take care of my medical thing, you know?
Joe Moore: And
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yeah. How
Joe Moore: tragic is that?
Jen Davenport: Yeah, I mean, it’s really counterproductive, right? Like we, we live in this, this cult of productivity in the corporate world. When, when everything is about pushing for more and more [00:27:00] and more. But when we, um. When we focus less on things like our own personal wellbeing, when we sacrifice time to meditate even 10 minutes a day, we’re really harming our ability to, to be, um, high performers in the workplace or in life in general.
Jen Davenport: It’s just really counterproductive,
Joe Moore: right? So you spent all this money and this time to do this treatment or intervention or drug or whatever it was, and you do the things afterwards, which is why it’s hard. It takes work to build these new habits. And so like, it’s not like all of a sudden you’re, you know, doing all the things you know you should be doing.
Joe Moore: It’s like, well, I’m still like struggling. I’m still trying to get through all this stuff, and how do I contextualize it more appropriately, such that maybe going to the doctor is higher priority. Yeah. You
Jen Davenport: know, one, [00:28:00] 1%.
Joe Moore: Yeah.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just specifically around like leadership and optimizing human performance, it can be such a big business.
Jen Davenport: I, I, I think about the book Stealing Fire by Stephen Coler. You remember that one? Like, I think that came out maybe more than a decade ago. And at that point in time it was all about, you know, shifting into this flow state and how teams can start to, to, to shift in ways that they move less as an individual and more as a, as a cohesive unit to accomplish more.
Jen Davenport: And so I, I’m curious your thoughts around the use of psychedelics, um, to. To create more of a flow state. I know we can get into flow state just from mindfulness, from physical activity. There are so [00:29:00] many flow triggers. But when we think about, um, I, I, I think the conversation is moving maybe a way from sort of flow state more into brain health and energy management and cognitive clarity now.
Jen Davenport: So where do you think psychedelics fit in the spectrum on those conversations?
Joe Moore: Just like everything with psychedelics, it’s, um, there’s a lot of caveats as to where the right place for these things are. Um, and there’s a lot of discovery yet to be done around it as well. So I’m thinking a few things, right? Like we.
Joe Moore: To get through our workday skillfully. Like, is it actually the right move to just throw more drugs into the mix?
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: You know, I think that’s something we have to really carefully think about, especially [00:30:00] if it’s with some frequency.
Jen Davenport: Yeah.
Joe Moore: If the idea is that the, the worker has the ability to make that decision for themselves if they wanna do it, you know, once every couple years, like maybe that’s less pressure.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, but yeah, I don’t, I don’t think, like, you know. Um, some sort of subsidized microdosing plan. I don’t know that that makes, I don’t, it, it creeps me out a little bit to think about that kind of thing.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, it, it kind of gets into that whole ethics discussion, right? If, if there’s this mm-hmm. This a right idea.
Jen Davenport: If, if there’s this big, bright idea that there’s some sort of shortcut to getting more out of people, um, it, it really does turn it into maybe the possibility of sort of weaponized use. Um,
Joe Moore: mm-hmm.
Jen Davenport: Like, like all of these other conversations that we’re having about skip your doctor’s appointment so you can get more done in the office.
Jen Davenport: We [00:31:00] certainly don’t want to, to hype people up on, on medicines that are framed as shortcuts to, to more productivity or shortcuts to, um, you know, some sort of creativity hack of, of sorts. Yeah, I mean, I think there’s a big question around what does ethical use look like for someone in a position of power.
Jen Davenport: Um, you know, I I, I was, I was, um, just sort of flipping through, stealing fire a little bit and remembering back when they were looking to hire a new CEO at, um, at Google, the guy who got the job was the guy who went to Burning Man with the founders. Right? And so, if, if I remember that story correctly. And so, I mean, there’s certainly, there’s certainly an association with the use of psychedelics and expanded creativity, but [00:32:00] I’m sure that there could be, uh, uh, an ethical dilemma around how far the conversation goes within the corporate culture.
Joe Moore: Um. Yeah, I think you know, that, that story is interesting and funny. I don’t think we can pull too many lessons from it for the, for the broader conversation. Like Eric Schmidt ended up a billionaire. He’s fine. You know? Um, and, you know, if he didn’t want to do it, he had an easy no. Um, you know, I, I’m more concerned about like, okay, so you’re fresh outta college, um, and you get this job and people are press pressuring you to like microdose whatever.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. You know, maybe more than microdose to do better spreadsheets or whatever it is. Or like, do better compassion on the telephone when you’re doing customer support. Um, and you know, the [00:33:00] individual needs to have the utmost agency here. There can’t be pressure
Jen Davenport: absolutely.
Joe Moore: In a, in a hierarchy like coming from a hierarchical position for you to do this.
Joe Moore: And it like that. For me to feel okay about it and not to be shouting about how much I disagree with it. Right. So I have this whole like, kind of thing about ethics where like, I need us to like define that term a little bit better. Yeah. So generally we’re talking about guild rules, like what’s the agreement, those of us that do this, what’s our agreement so that we can stay kind of collegial and trust each other?
Jen Davenport: Yeah. You know, I, I think that at the, at the heart of every conversation that I have, um, preserving agency is at the, is at the top of the list. Like every person, regardless of where they sit in society, um, within a corporate hierarchy, wherever they are restoring and [00:34:00] maintaining personal agency is. Is, is the golden standard from my perspective.
Jen Davenport: So, however this conversation goes with regard to whether a person could or should use psychedelics, it’s always about what’s in that person’s best in highest good.
Joe Moore: So I wanna like rewind the tape on like, you know, what, what do we actually even mean? You know, like, so let’s go to Guil guilds again. So talk about like, you know, um, say a shoemaker guild, like they, they agree that it’s, it’s, you know, the right thing to do for them as a profession to use these four types of glues.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Don’t use those other glues ’cause it’s lower quality and you know, maybe too much rainforest has to get cut down for it or whatever it is. Like we have a collective [00:35:00] agreement. That this is the case.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, I think, you know, because of the war on drugs, we, that kind of broke around psychedelics and
Jen Davenport: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, drugs more generally. And, um, you know, we spent a lot of time, Kyle and I, Kyle Buller, co-founder of Psychedelic Say and I, on this ethics topic.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, we got contacted by, um, Christine House Keller and Peter Schwart at Hughes out of Exeter University to contribute an essay, um, on the ethics of the drug war.
Joe Moore: Um, and we took that quite literally, like, what do we mean by ethics? So we went all the way back to Aristotle, spent all this time reading Aristotle and, you know, writing this draft, trying to like include all of these things on the foundations of like logics of ethics. What do we actually even mean when we say that?
Joe Moore: And they said, what? You just write a history of the drug war? I said, okay. [00:36:00] Um, it’s, it’s quite self-evident how crazy it is. And in human terms, we often kind of conflate ethics and morality. Like we get a little bit confused by what we mean where, so I like, I like to kind of bring it back to like a moral conversation or like, what does a certain group agree is the right or wrong thing to do?
Joe Moore: Um, to try to like, um, I don’t know, feel a little bit more careful and specific. Often you’ll see therapists say that’s not ethical or doctors or, you know, lawyers and we, we want to be clear that what they’re talking about is different from when we talk about kind of morality and moral concerns. And, um, I think there’s a lot more that has to go into getting those fleshed out.
Joe Moore: But where I stand is that people shouldn’t necessarily be interfering on other people’s drug use. Um, [00:37:00] you know, collectively, I think there’s some imperative around education and support and safety. Um, but at the end of the day, it’s somebody else’s decision if they want to do it or not. And we shouldn’t be pushing anybody to do anything, even if it’s Ibuprofen or Adderall or or LSD.
Joe Moore: Like, we should be really careful about all of it.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Totally agree. Totally agree. You know, you’re, you’re, you’re making me think a little bit more about the role that policy is gonna play in all of these conversations. Um, and, and, and so, so what do you think the future is gonna look like? Do you, do you think it’s gonna lean more towards medical regulation, like psychiatry?
Jen Davenport: Um, do you think that there’s more potential for it to lean more towards, like, regulated wellness environments? Um, I, I think that there are a lot of people across the wellness industry and across the medical community who are really interested in this. When I was looking at [00:38:00] this, um, when I was in the vital cohort, we had medical professionals, therapists, um, um.
Jen Davenport: Just curious people like me who wanted to understand more about this and how it impacts, um, human development and, and human performance. And so, so where do you think it’s gonna go?
Joe Moore: I think we have a few different battles and it’s gonna be a series of battles and that, that kind of play out in different ways. So right now we have a lot of wins and traction from these state level regulated access programs. Um, we also have what I think is the best thing going in Colorado right now.
Joe Moore: We can always do better, but we have a regulated access program for psilocybin. They’re working really hard on ibogaine, bringing that to market in a regulated framework. And we also have decriminalized access. [00:39:00] And, you know, inside that decrim framework, um, a platform from which lots of operators can be doing business around these things with psilocybin, mescal, DMT, and Ibogaine.
Joe Moore: Um, a little more careful on the ibogaine, but it’s, it’s there. Mm-hmm. Um, from natural sources. So like, I love it. I think we look in the ma the micro here in Colorado, there’s gonna be a lot of tension between the Colorado regulated access program and the decriminalized frame, in part because a lot of people are still very attracted to the decriminalized frame on a of pricing.
Joe Moore: Um, there’s an article I picked up yesterday from MJ Biz, so kind of a cannabis business article talking about how overregulation is in cannabis is leading to higher taxes, and then as a result, bigger activity in the black markets and illicit markets. So, um. As a result of [00:40:00] that, you know, we’re drive, we’re trying to do all this regulation and do it the way we want, but there’s all these unseen consequences of that.
Joe Moore: And we we’re kind of pretending that those things don’t exist. Yes. So in the Colorado and Oregon frames, we made taxation a bit, high regulations, quite intense. Voters voted for one thing. Regulators are gonna do what they can to be as careful as possible, as conservative as possible. Mm-hmm. Because they don’t want to get fired or get blamed for somebody getting hurt.
Joe Moore: And they don’t know these topics very well. You know, they’ve not been around for 20 years.
Jen Davenport: Yeah.
Joe Moore: There’s some advisors supporting folks. So there’s gonna be this dynamic tension because of regulations being high cost, being high cost, and decrim being a lot lower. So I think there’s a looming battle in Colorado and it’ll, it’ll be.
Joe Moore: I don’t think the fight is the right fight. I don’t think we’re fighting the right people here because this [00:41:00] was kind of potentially set up from the beginning, um, by not being really tight with what the regulators need to do when they set this stuff up. Um, so I see a looming battle from regulated trying to squash the decrim side, which I don’t love.
Joe Moore: Yeah, so decrim side, get ready for this battle. Organize Now to defend yourselves against this, um, it will be challenging and I think, uh, we might have a similar thing from federal two states, though there might be a way that they, um, can coexist. So if we look at Compass having psilocybin coming out, few other companies with different drugs, um, coming to market through the FDA over the next three or four years, um, like maps will happen.
Joe Moore: You know, MDMA will happen. Um, we’re gonna see a similar tension from large cap pharma wanting to defend their territory.
Jen Davenport: Absolutely. [00:42:00] Yeah.
Joe Moore: And you know, we haven’t necessarily seen huge signal on that yet. I interviewed, um, Jr. Um, rom maybe from mind me, CEO co-founder or founder of Mind Me. Mm-hmm. They’re developing LSD and some other substances.
Joe Moore: It’s like, will your, and the question, it was a, it was a big fight in the middle of our recording, or at least I, that’s how I felt it. Um, are, is your company in the future going to spend money to squash decriminalization campaigns, um, or to keep the drug war going because there is financial incentive, especially in a publicly traded corporation, everybody to keep these things illegal.
Joe Moore: Um,
Jen Davenport: absolutely.
Joe Moore: And we have to figure out strategies through which. We disincentivize them from large cap pharma, that is from spending money to squishing, um, these less regulated markets. And how do we do that? I think that’s [00:43:00] a really big question that we all should be asking if we want diversity in drug access and psychedelic access.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Or do you only want Compass psilocybin?
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, I mean, I, I think it’s a, a really great point in that, that that tension that’s gonna be created, um, from big Pharma. And I think, you know, as
Joe Moore: I wanna be clear, Jen, I want all these people to win. I think there’s a world in which we can all win.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Um, some people are just gonna have to like, put the gun down. At a certain point.
Jen Davenport: Well, that, that’s kind of the whole point of, of expanding access to psychedelics, right? You can’t fight when everybody loves each other.
Joe Moore: Um, so one of the hopes,
Jen Davenport: that’s the hope at least, right? That, that we, uh, that we all learn to just get along a little bit better with each other.
Jen Davenport: Um, you know, I’d, I’d love for you to expand a little bit more on the access issue that gets created, um, in this [00:44:00] tension, um, between, you know, this, the, the decrim, um, angle and regulators like, like what do you see happening, uh, you’re close to what’s happening in Colorado? Can you be, can you give a little more perspective on that?
Joe Moore: So there’s a market crunch right now in Colorado and in Oregon where people followed all the rules. They did everything the state wanted them to do to get these businesses going, and they’re having a hard time. In Oregon, we’re seeing a lot of businesses close up shop. There’s, um, you know, psychedelics today in vital made very explicit decisions not to enter the Oregon and Colorado regulated markets for training.
Joe Moore: Um, you know, I had check in hand in both states and I actually said I should not actually mail this check. Um, because it just did not seem like a great situation. Um, a lot of training companies started up, everybody’s selling the moon. Yeah. And there’s [00:45:00] very few people who can get jobs or work in the ecosystem, um, for the longest time, and it might still even be the case.
Joe Moore: Is, uh, mushroom service centers, whatever they wanna call themselves, healing centers. Mm-hmm. They weren’t hiring people unless they were also clinicians. So like therapists?
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yes.
Joe Moore: Or psychologists. And like to, for me to be selling that training felt really disingenuous knowing that it was gonna be a really tight job market.
Joe Moore: So by selling a certification, you’re also saying like, yeah, totally. You can get a job. It’s like, well, you know, that’s what we do at Vital, but we’re not saying you’re gonna enter these, these regulated state frameworks. There’s plenty of positions out here. Um, there’s plenty of freelance work you can do.
Joe Moore: Yeah. But it’s not the case that you’re gonna be purely a state level legal worker. Um.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. You know, it’s, it’s really interesting just, just [00:46:00] thinking about, you know, intentions for going through the vital training and, you know, coming from the angle of, um, working with senior level executives who are under enormous stress, um, trying to find ways to, um, you know, people reach a level of, of burnout where depression is high, stress is high, anxiety is high, and, and especially for women who’ve.
Jen Davenport: A few decades in corporate America, they, they sometimes get to a point where they’re asking, um, is it, is this all there is? Right? And so when people bring these conversations to me, the, the intention is always to be able to give a credible answer about whether this is an avenue that’s safe to go down or not to go down.
Jen Davenport: And so I love your point that, you know, given [00:47:00] where we are in the regulatory framework, um, it’s important for people to recognize that, um, going down the path is, is something to be very thoughtfully considered. Um, and that there are many ways to. To approach wellness, um, and also to relieve the pressures that come with, um, with living in corporate America.
Jen Davenport: So, so this has been really helpful for me, Joe. I, I know we kind of pivoted sort of to my, i to my interview topics, and I think I’ve exhausted those questions, so I’m happy to, to turn it back around and, and go back to the conversation now of where, where do you wanna take it from here?
Joe Moore: Well, okay. So say somebody, all right.
Joe Moore: There’s, there’s all these people, they keep finding out about this topic.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: They kinda light on fire [00:48:00] for a little bit. They’re really excited. Um, and everybody’s like, oh, I wanna do everything I can to support this. You know? What, what in your opinion is like the first two or three things people might do before they kind of.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I don’t know. Sell their 401k and move to DC to lobby full time or whatever it is.
Jen Davenport: Well, education is at the top of the list, Joe. Right. I like, I think that, um, you know, we talked for a few minutes about powerful experiences and, um, education about what’s really going on in the psyche is, is first and foremost it has to happen.
Jen Davenport: Um, you know, making sure that a person has the tools and the capability to really integrate those experiences, I think is super important. Uh, uh. Individuals [00:49:00] have to be able to contextualize the experience for themselves before they try to go out and contextualize that for anybody else. Um, so education, personal context.
Jen Davenport: And then I think really staying abreast of, of trends in the industry and where things are going from, um, from a regulatory perspective is, is really important. Like I, I work at the, at the intersection of, or, or my, my personal passions really live at the intersection of psychology, spirituality, and human performance.
Jen Davenport: And so it’s just a natural topic that comes up in these conversations, but to your point, it’s a little bit more difficult to build a career. On the topic of psychedelics alone. And so really being sure about what the opportunities are and the angle [00:50:00] that you’re coming from, I think would be really important too.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Read, read, read. Listen, listen, listen.
Jen Davenport: Absolutely.
Joe Moore: Take some classes. Um, so some good news, psychedelics Stay has over 750 podcasts you can pull from.
Jen Davenport: Yes.
Joe Moore: Um, we’ve got all sorts of articles you can read all for free. Um, there’s, you know, if you listen to two of those a day, you’ll be done in almost a year or two of those episodes a day.
Joe Moore: And then, um, you’ll be really educated. I promise you’ll have some fluency that you didn’t even know was possible on the topic. I think getting some experiences and being safe
Jen Davenport: Yes.
Joe Moore: With getting those experiences. So that could be. That could mean a lot of things and it’s gonna be different for everybody.
Joe Moore: You know, for some people it’s like the full rigorous Oregon, Colorado psilocybin approach, or there’s, there’s similar programs in [00:51:00] Netherlands or Jamaica available. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I don’t think the safest and, and first step is ayahuasca. Um, some people would, that’s what I did, but I don’t think it’s the right move.
Joe Moore: Um, and then
Jen Davenport: I think probably dipping the toe in the water in, in a little bit calmer waters is, is probably a good approach there.
Joe Moore: Right. And understand the legal situation
Jen Davenport: Absolutely.
Joe Moore: And make sure you’re not gonna get you or anybody else in trouble. Yeah. Um, that’s one of my personal, personal ethoses right, is I catch myself in binds all the time, Jen, where I’m like, I, I won’t do that business thing because there’s, there’s a world in which that gets people in trouble later.
Joe Moore: Uh,
Jen Davenport: legally. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think absolutely understanding the legal landscape and is there a way to practice this that, um, with is within legal bounds? Um, I think watching what’s happening on the, the medical accessibility scene is a great place [00:52:00] to, to start having the conversation. Um, you know, I think some of the experiences outside of the United States will continue to offer the experience sort of steeped in the, the spiritual and cultural traditions that I think could be a, an important aspect of the experience in general.
Jen Davenport: So I think that’s a great way to look at it as well.
Joe Moore: Right. And you know, shameless plug, um, the thing that kind of birthed vital is navigating psychedelics, and that is a nine week program. We’ve got that coming. In March 10, actually about six days, we, we kick off a nine week program. It’s gonna be awesome.
Joe Moore: Um, Kyle and I’ve taught it so many times and it informed in a huge way how we execute it on vital. Um, which I think is best thing going, you know, best thing since sliced bread. And uh, really I love that. Love that. [00:53:00] You know, anybody can take this. If you’re in high school, you got a credit card, you could probably take it.
Joe Moore: We probably want to get your parents to say yes, but yeah, like, you know, anybody can take this from an anesthesiologist to psychiatrist to you know, anybody. And, and you know, if you take this we’ll give you a discount on Vital if you choose to continue with us. Um, we’re actually launching a buy one and bring a friend program today for navigating psychedelics.
Joe Moore: So it’s, um, you know, nine weeks you and a friend, plus a bunch of other new friends at. Navigating psychedelics and you get your foundations, you get your orientation around what is this weird space? What is what? There’s so much I don’t know about because a lot of people, like they read Michael Pollen, right?
Joe Moore: Or watched the Netflix thing and they’re like, oh, this is, this is what it is. And it’s like, well, I don’t know. Do you, do you think it’s different from what popular media paints it? This whole ecosystem?
Jen Davenport: Yes, I do. I, I think that there’s, [00:54:00] um, there are a lot of differences from what, um, the, the media is talking about.
Jen Davenport: And I think it depends on what media channel you’re going down, right? Um, I think that. One of the important distinctions that I would say is that the use of psychedelics can be really destabilizing in the beginning, right? And so I think that’s something that people should really be prepared for, and that’s where education comes in.
Jen Davenport: Um, not everybody has the luxury of being destabilized for weeks or even months when they start digging into what might come up, um, with the use of psychedelics. And so, so I think that’s really an important thing to delve into and understand before anybody goes down a journey like that. Especially diving into a big experience like ayahuasca or considering some sort of hero [00:55:00] dose, which I wouldn’t recommend to anybody as a way to, to dip their toe in the water.
Joe Moore: Right. Let’s not get started there.
Jen Davenport: That’s a whole different podcast, right?
Joe Moore: Right. Yeah. So really be careful. So. Thing I’ve been pivoting to lately, Jen, is why, in part why we started mm-hmm. Is having college kids have an easier time. Absolutely. Um, not needing so much help and then that, that kind of just keeps it, it’s kind of an undercurrent here.
Joe Moore: It’s how not only can we have people having really great outcomes
Jen Davenport: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: But also people not needing, um, any medical attention from this at all. How can we appropriately screen as a community? Yeah. Um, how can we get the right care to the right people at the right time, you know, whatever that is. Um, and the more education we have and the more careful we are, the [00:56:00] less bad stories are in the news.
Joe Moore: And the less ammo there is to fuel the drug war.
Jen Davenport: Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, I I, you, you said you were giving yourself a shameless plug, Joe, but I’ll be the first to stand up and say how much I valued all of the information that comes from psychedelics today. Like from the very beginning, engaging with your organization.
Jen Davenport: It’s been about education and harm reduction. And I think that’s so important, particularly as we look at how do we, um, how do we safely lead people to better outcomes for themselves? People who’ve suffered from trauma, violence, war, um, people who are just really looking to broaden their perspective and love more like.
Jen Davenport: Using the minimum amount of any sort of substance to achieve the desired outcome is the ideal way to [00:57:00] go. And you guys have structured that so well and kept such an amazing focus on transparency and, and, um, really understanding the impacts. I, I will send anybody who asks me questions about whether psychedelics are the way to go right to psychedelics today.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. I love this. Not, not planned anybody, uh, out there. Um, but this is awesome and I appreciate you saying that. And I, that’s, that’s what we’ve wanted to do from the beginning is, you know, these things are very interesting. They can be very helpful, they can be all the way helpful or they can be quite challenging and not all that helpful.
Joe Moore: And there’s a number of organizations that just really hype it hard and, you know, I’ve been guilty of that as well, but that’s not what I want to be creating.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: You know, I want to create like a really honest platform because I think that humans [00:58:00] deserve a better relationship to substance and that, you know, psychedelics today wants to have a, a role in that.
Jen Davenport: Well, I’m certainly a fan Joe, and I really appreciate all of the hard work and effort that you put into the conversation. You know, I’d love to leave you with one last question, if that’s okay.
Joe Moore: Sure. I
Jen Davenport: mean, we’ve, we’ve covered, we’ve touched on research policy, leadership, curiosity. Does this belong in boardrooms?
Jen Davenport: And so if, if we were having the conversation five years from now, what do you think will have changed the most in the psychedelic landscape?
Joe Moore: Oh, the prediction game. Um,
Jen Davenport: what do we need to do? What do we need to do to affect the change?
Joe Moore: Um,
Joe Moore: Terrance McKenna planted this idea in my mind. I’m sure he didn’t create the concept, but the idea [00:59:00] is to live as far into the future as you can, the future that you want as you can. So can you be, you know, living as though the world is 15 years into the, the most optimal future you can believe in. You know, in terms of like kind of dragging the world towards that, it kind of creates this attractor.
Joe Moore: He had this whole concept, a strange attractor at the end of time, and it’s like, you know, we can in some way actually by living in these ways and thinking in these ways be affecting major change that can help so many people. And
Jen Davenport: I believe that’s
Joe Moore: true. That’s what I really wanna see. So it’s, you know, how are we creating new, strange, psychedelic economies, um, energy exchange communities, things along those lines that, that aren’t, you know, we don’t necessarily need PayPal in the middle of everything.
Jen Davenport: Yes.
Joe Moore: You know, what are, yeah. We don’t need somebody else’s platform mediating our interactions all the time. They can [01:00:00] be really helpful. But is that the way you want to interact with the rest of humanity for the rest of your life and, and for your ancestors and family to, you know, to be doing, and I don’t know.
Joe Moore: I don’t, I don’t think so. Um, yeah, and, you know, do your best to cover your tracks, get a, get some, get some private email, and get on signal and get those messages disappearing. So, you know, you don’t really, you don’t want to get yourself in trouble here. Um, we had a quick comment. I don’t know if I, it’s a good idea to put this up.
Joe Moore: Well, this one, this looks positive. Um, so we had one here. It’s about, um, RFK, and I’ve got all sorts of opinions. Leverage him as much as possible, you know, perhaps I don’t know how to, um, yeah, I don’t know. Like, I think, I think there’s a world in which RFK can be useful to [01:01:00] us. I don’t know. I. Yet how useful he will be.
Joe Moore: He did go on Rogan recently and, and said some positive things. I, you know, he promised he had some sort of promise that in 12 months we were gonna have prescription psychedelics for veterans. Um, and I, I don’t think we have that yet. Um,
Jen Davenport: yeah,
Joe Moore: but, you know, politicians and promises, um, and can I believe him?
Joe Moore: I don’t know yet. I need to listen to that Rogan interview. I need to like, read a few more of his positions. I’ve heard that there’s a huge amount getting in his way from making progress on psychedelics. Um, turns out his boss isn’t, you know, psychedelics aren’t his boss’ biggest priority. Um, and I think I’ve heard some things along those lines.
Joe Moore: Same thing with cannabis. It’s not like the priority. So, um, you know, perhaps I don’t, I don’t like giving my power away to the biggest names in the world. I would say. [01:02:00] How can we use our own power to make. Change more locally and you know, coordinate appropriately to make larger federal and international change.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, I think grassroots is gonna be where it’s at for this particular topic and moving the needle towards, towards access, education, all the things that are important to us.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Well. Jen, thanks so much for doing this with me. Yeah. Where can people find your work?
Jen Davenport: Sure. Um, you can find me at Iron Thread Partners.
Jen Davenport: That’s my, that’s my corporate consulting and coaching brand. And I also have Burning Heart Collective. That’s my brand for helping people to integrate big, spiritual and psychedelic experiences. So I really believe it’s important for people to have support if they do venture out, if they do go and dip their toe in the water.
Jen Davenport: So, um, burning Heart collective.com would be the [01:03:00] place to go for that. And if there are topics around human performance, leadership development, iron thread partners.
Joe Moore: Amazing. Yeah. Um, a few plugs here, um, vital. We’re hoping to start that up again in October, so you can apply vital psychedelic training.
Joe Moore: We’ve got navigating psychedelics that starts up March 10. Please check that out. Everybody. Navigating psychedelics, essentials of psychedelic therapy and integration. I love that program so much and I’m so excited we’re offering it again. Then we have, um, a, geez, it’s a complicated name and I keep forgetting it.
Joe Moore: Um, but effectively it’s a depth psychology kind of seminar day with a bunch of speakers and, and panels. It’s called Expanding Horizons in Mental Health, psychedelics, depth in the Human Psyche. That begins Sunday, March 15. That’s a really interesting event. Folks should definitely check that out. As always, please subscribe, um, follow, follow us [01:04:00] everywhere you can on socials.
Joe Moore: Leave us some reviews anywhere you can, um, and get on our email list. And, um, thank you so much. Thank you, Jen, for being here, doing this with us and hope we can do more in the future.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, thanks for having me, Joe.
