Spiritual

PT409 – Pathology, The DSM, and The Ontological Shock of Psychedelic Experiences

May 9, 2023
Featuring: Erica Rex & Mona Sobhani, Ph.D.

In this episode, Joe interviews Erica Rex: award-winning journalist, past guest and writer, and participant in one of the first ever clinical trials using psilocybin to treat cancer-related depression; and Mona Sobhani, Ph.D.: cognitive neuroscientist and the author of Proof of Spiritual Phenomena: A Neuroscientist’s Discovery of the Ineffable Mysteries of the Universe.

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In this episode, Joe interviews Erica Rex: award-winning journalist, past guest and writer, and participant in one of the first ever clinical trials using psilocybin to treat cancer-related depression; and Mona Sobhani, Ph.D.: cognitive neuroscientist and the author of Proof of Spiritual Phenomena: A Neuroscientist’s Discovery of the Ineffable Mysteries of the Universe.

As Rex discovered the power of psychedelics through a clinical trial, she discusses a huge problem she discovered: that researchers are not preparing participants enough for the ontological shock they may go through in trying to match unexplainable happenings to a rigid framework (or match the normal to a framework that has suddenly shifted) – that while patients have support at the clinic, it all disappears when they return to normal life. She believes that all too often, researchers are doing only what is necessary to be able to continue to receive funding, push drugs through the FDA, and prescribe a pill. 

And as psychedelics changed Sobhani from very constrained scientific thinking to being very open to new ideas about consciousness and spirituality, she learned that many scientists had similar stories, and that coming out of the psychedelic closet is sometimes the best thing to do to normalize these ways of healing. 

They discuss the challenges of newcomers trying to explain their experience without having the necessary language; how we still don’t truly understand mental illness; how the DSM just clusters symptoms to fit ‘disorders’ into a box; how society has started pathologizing anything we find unpleasant (which of course, is a part of being human); Gary Fisher’s research on using LSD and psilocybin for schizophrenic children, why science needs to combine consciousness research and psychedelics research, and more.

Notable Quotes

“I think most people (neuroscientists, a lot of psychologists): we don’t like labels. We don’t like the DSM (especially neuroscientists). It doesn’t make any sense; all you’re doing is clustering symptoms and calling it a disorder. It’s useful, but it’s not explanatory. …Everyone’s so focused on ‘What are the brain mechanisms?’ but we do need to pull out and [ask]: ‘What are the societal mechanisms? How is our society not supporting [us]? Why do we see such an increase in some of these disorders? It’s a really big question.” -Mona

“There was a big move to get grief made into a pathology that was defined in the DSM so it could be treated with a pill. Grief. This was during COVID. So now grief is a pathology and you can be diagnosed with ‘grieving disorder’ and treated for it. …Anything that does not serve the machine is now considered a disease and disorder and has to be fixed, which is unfortunate because it takes us away from every piece of authentic experience that we could ever possibly have. And that is dehumanizing, profoundly.” -Erica

“Our whole society’s not built around humanity, even though we talk a lot about humanity. But there’s no humane principles in business or in society. Nothing is built around what the human needs, and that’s why, even in psychiatry, you see [that] grief or these normal human needs are pathologized. …We’re just cutting off parts of ourselves and not catering to being a human because we hate being human so much, apparently. We hate the things that are inconvenient about it, that it’s like we just have to cut it off and block it off and go forward. But you can’t do that; then you have all these coping mechanisms that emerge and then all these disorders, because you’re not functioning in an environment that supports you being what you are.” -Mona

Links

Psychedelics Today: PT273 – Erica Rex – Clinical Trials and Spontaneous Mystical Experiences

Madinamerica.com: Psychedelic Therapy Will Not Save Us, by Erica Rex

Madinamerica.com: The Culture Is the Poison: Why Psychedelics Are Dangerous Medicine in a Neoliberal Society, by Erica Rex

Scientificamerican.com: The Power of Psychedelics: They worked for my depression. Could they be the future of psychiatry? By Erica Rex

Scientificamerican.com: Hallucinogens Could Ease Existential Terror, by Erica Rex

Psychedelics Today: Could the Sonoran Desert Toad Cure Narcissism? by Erica Rex

Her NIH/NCI talk, “A Breast Cancer Patient’s Perspectives on the Uses of Psychedelics in Medicine” (begins at 1:04:41)

Npr.org: The ’60s Are Gone, But Psychedelic Research Trip Continues

Monasobhaniphd.com

Proof of Spiritual Phenomena: A Neuroscientist’s Discovery of the Ineffable Mysteries of the Universe, by Mona Sobhani, Ph.D.

Brave New World of Psychedelic Science substack

Exploring Consciousness: A community of curious (neuro)scientists

Globenewswire.com: COMPASS Pathways presents largest ever study of psilocybin therapy, at American Psychiatric Association annual meeting

Treatment of Childhood Schizophrenia Utilizing LSD and Psilocybin, by Gary Fisher, Ph.D.

The Center Cannot Hold: My Journey Through Madness, by Elyn R. Saks

The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture, by Gabor Maté with Daniel Maté

The Myth of Mental Illness: Foundations of a Theory of Personal Conduct, by Thomas S Szasz

Saving Normal: An Insider’s Revolt Against Out-Of-Control Psychiatric Diagnosis, Dsm-5, Big Pharma, and the Medicalization of Ordinary Life, by Allen Frances

Jamanetwork.com: Association of Religious and Spiritual Factors With Patient-Reported Outcomes of Anxiety, Depressive Symptoms, Fatigue, and Pain Interference Among Adolescents and Young Adults With Cancer

Ecotopia, by Ernest Callenbach

Le Canicule

In this Episode

Erica Rex

Erica Rex is an award-winning journalist with degrees from Stanford University, Brown University, and an MA from Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism, who brings 30+ years of medical and journalistic experience to the world of psychedelic medicine. She is embedded in the field of psychedelic research, writing on the re-emergence of psychedelic medicine for prestigious publications such as Scientific American, The New York Times, The Times (UK), The Independent, Mad in America, and Psychedelics Today. She speaks regularly with top researchers in the field in the UK, the US, and France. As both patient and thought leader on psychedelic medicine, she gives invited talks about her experience to professional conferences and federal agencies, such as the National Institutes of Health. She has been interviewed on NPR, Sky News, and many other news outlets. Her work lends a unique female perspective to the male-dominated field of psychedelic medicine, telling the story of psychedelics from two perspectives: patient/subject and highly accomplished science journalist.

Socials: Twitter

Photo of Erica Rex by Pete Kiehart.

Mona Sobhani

Mona Sobhani, Ph.D.

Mona Sobhani, Ph.D., is a cognitive neuroscientist, author, and entrepreneur. A former research scientist at the University of Southern California, she holds a doctorate in neuroscience from USC and completed a post-doctoral fellowship at Vanderbilt University with the MacArthur Foundation Law and Neuroscience Project. She is the author of Proof of Spiritual Phenomena: A Neuroscientist’s Discovery of the Ineffable Mysteries of the Universe (Park City Press/Inner Traditions), which details her transformation from a diehard scientific materialist to an open-minded spiritual seeker. In the Brave New World of Psychedelic Science substack, along with Erica Rex, she writes about the psychedelic renaissance, altered states of consciousness, and the transpersonal. She is co-founder of Exploring Consciousness, a community of curious scientists who are seeking to understand consciousness, spirituality, and the nature of our reality.

Socials: Twitter / Instagram